Beth's response was entirely logical. I've seen Mrs. Children/The Whiles and after reading this forum won't pay money to see them again. That's my choice. As a woman, I'm offended by the original poster's decision to "take a stand" against gay rights and women's rights. Say what you will about his post; he clearly said he was "against the war" and that his practicing religious beliefs were closely aligned with the president's. He admitted to being "ignorant" at least four times in the original post (ignorant on economic issues, no world view, etc) and name-checked abortion and family values as examples of how his beliefs align with the president's.
Now that this discussion has started to get really good, I would like to clarify: my intention was not to "take a stand" and nowhere did I say anything about gay rights. My "men kissing men" comment was satirical, something I had seen in the Daily Show and perhaps came across in a way I did not intend. I merely meant to satirize the fact that the homosexual community is seen as very threatening by the religious right. I myself do not find the homosexual community as threatening in any way, and I do have severe problems with the Constitutional ammendment the President has been talking about- I think it is very unconstitutional. And I also disagree with the President's point of view regarding hate crimes.
Now, as for being ignorant, my own belief is that the first step in trying to transcend ignorance is embracing and accepting the fact that one is ignorant and is very bound by the limitations of being a human being. I never said that I have "no world view," I merely said that mine is very limited. I have yet to travel to a country outside of the US or Europe and I have yet to dive into very much literature of the Eastern or Middle Eastern world.
As far as abortion, I am not trying to change any laws or anything. This is just my belief, and I respect those who believe differently. I think you are greatly mistaken if you think Bush is going to 1) attempt to make abortion illegal 2) attain any success in this. I just disagree strongly with Kerry's voting record with abortion.
As far as "family values," this is my own fault as I was very ambiguous with this term. I like Bush's tax breaks for couples with children and for married couples, and I persoanlly would like to see those tax breaks extend to civil unions as well.
I have to admit that much of the backlash against my post is my own fault. I am guilty of being incoherent and rambling in my original post. I think its the Irish part of me that wants to throw as much shit against the wall as possible and see what sticks. I did not want this discussion to have anything to do with me or the Whiles, I wanted it to be a way to have two very different points of view discuss things and perhaps show that maybe the country is not completely divided and that people who voted for Bush can get along with people who voted for Kerry and so on. Again, my fault as I brought myself into my original post more than I should have. I suppose I do have insecurities about my vote, like I said, voting for Bush does betray a lot of values that I have, and I therefore brought myself into it in an effort I think to over-explain my vote. My footnotes I guess were meant as a way for me to say "although I am ignorant, I have at least thought about things and want to acknowledge your concerns as well as the concerns I have with the President.
-I think that for me, this election showed two great flaws in our democracy: 1. The two party system and how it has further polarized, divided and mis-represented our country 2. The tragedy that is the primary elections. Were it not for the way they are done (with states voting on different days and wrapping up the winner very early on), this thread wouldnt exist as McCain would have been the Republican canidate in 2000.
-I don't see why its fair for people like many of the people surrounding Bush, Bush himself and a lot of the Christian right movement to say "we're right and they're wrong." Or to say: everyone should be Christian and think this way. I sympathize with everyone fighting against this, but how is it different to say "voting for Kerry is right, voting for Bush is wrong."