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 Post subject: Wonderland
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:27 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff

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http://www.donewaiting.com/2010/01/15/o ... onderland/


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:53 pm 
Mechagodzilla

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With all the business-minded individuals involved I think it's a stretch to call this non-profit. Beware of the self-serving "innovative entrepreneurs" contributing to your local arts community.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:14 am 
Godzilla
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Rollie wrote:
Beware of the self-serving "innovative entrepreneurs" contributing to your local arts community.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:36 am 
Godzilla
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In case you don't know what a conker tree looks like - it's a great, big wooden thing. With conkers on it.
The idea of independent thought and action that goes by the name of "creativity" trips easily off the tongues of spokespeople for the corporate counterculture..

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:30 am 
Jet Jaguar
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I doubt that what they're planning will infringe much on the creativity of others.

In fact, I expect anyone who's opposed to Wonderland will have lots of opportunities to not get involved, not rent space, and not support the people who do.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:54 am 
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i'm just happy to see the john mayer-fication of columbus is now a reality

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:32 am 
Godzilla
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jeff wrote:
I doubt that what they're planning will infringe much on the creativity of others.

In fact, I expect anyone who's opposed to Wonderland will have lots of opportunities to not get involved, not rent space, and not support the people who do.

But, Jeff, it's the duty of responsible, civic-minded artists to FIGHT THE POWER. :!: No one should be able to profit from art, especially local art; if there's a single person involved who isn't losing dough* (that is code for $$$$$), then something shady is afoot. :naughty: Artists should be making ART, not bread* (that is code for $$$$$).



*Do you see what I did there?

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:55 pm 
Godzilla
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Rollie wrote:
With all the business-minded individuals involved I think it's a stretch to call this non-profit. Beware of the self-serving "innovative entrepreneurs" contributing to your local arts community.


i don't understand this leap at all. that's like saying the bill and melinda gates foundation, which is an awesome nonprofit, isn't one because it's founded by business-minded individuals...

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:46 pm 
King Ghidorah
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girl.e wrote:
Rollie wrote:
With all the business-minded individuals involved I think it's a stretch to call this non-profit. Beware of the self-serving "innovative entrepreneurs" contributing to your local arts community.


i don't understand this leap at all. that's like saying the bill and melinda gates foundation, which is an awesome nonprofit, isn't one because it's founded by business-minded individuals...


The danger is that the people running the non-profit will be calling it a non-profit, and talking the whole "we're all about arts infrastructure" game, but actually using it to siphon money away from the arts communities into their own pockets by paying themselves big salaries to run it or by personally owning big chunks of property that the non-profit bought, or whatever.

I'm not talking about this organization, because I don't know anything about it. Just clarifying what I think Rollies point is. I'm glad when anybody is doing anything proactive in Columbus.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 pm 
Godzilla
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Joking aside (for the moment), all I would care about, as a consumer, is what services are available and how much they would cost me. The politics and PR of "non-profit" are someone else's concern. Money is going to change hands somewhere. Anyway, their website shows:

Quote:
A meeting to discuss the plans you have been hearing about is taking place.

January 29, 2010
6:30pm - 9pm at Junctionview Studios, 889 Williams Ave., Grandview Hts. OH 43212

Schedule
6:30pm mingle
7pm presentation
8pm question and answer



for further information, please write to info@wonderlandcolumbus.com


This would be the perfect opportunity for someone to ask confrontational questions, hurl accusations, and get themselves tased to protect the community and the First Amendment.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:42 pm 
Godzilla
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Adam Smith wrote:
The danger is that the people running the non-profit will be calling it a non-profit, and talking the whole "we're all about arts infrastructure" game, but actually using it to siphon money away from the arts communities into their own pockets by paying themselves big salaries to run it or by personally owning big chunks of property that the non-profit bought, or whatever.

I'm not talking about this organization, because I don't know anything about it. Just clarifying what I think Rollies point is. I'm glad when anybody is doing anything proactive in Columbus.

Well said..
My name is underspecialization and I support this message.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:25 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff
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my concerns about 'big salaries' being associated with 'arts communities' are really minimal.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:01 pm 
King Ghidorah
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groundrules wrote:
my concerns about 'big salaries' being associated with 'arts communities' are really minimal.


Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:37 pm 
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Adam Smith wrote:
groundrules wrote:
my concerns about 'big salaries' being associated with 'arts communities' are really minimal.


Why?


i'm just not seeing that thing being some massive cash cow.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:39 pm 
Godzilla
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I think it's probably best to wait to argue about this until something actually exists.

_I think some sort of "meatspace Etsy" business incubator is a really good idea.

_I'm interested to hear where the 1.4mil or whatever they were asking for that building came from. (I did some preliminary research on the building for a potential project)

_Could they fit another buzzword in that Press Release?

_It's kind of curious that all the relevant information isn't posted for Public consumption

_Personally I wouldn't invest my time/effort w/o some sort of sweat-equity return (ie an ownership stake)


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:58 pm 
Mechagodzilla

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:08 pm
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i plan on going to the launch party and making my opinion from that.
i feel like what has developed from couchfire has been effective, cause while i may not love all the art, it has caused people to be more active.
which keeps creative people in town because they have invested their energy into building something.

so this will prolly continue that.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:02 pm 
King Ghidorah
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I think groundrules is trying to stir up shit by implying I'm talking about this project. I'm not. I'm just talking in general terms. Again, I'm stoked on most anything getting done. I agree w/ Wes on that whole part of it.

I'm saying, generally, that there is a lot of money to be taken from any arts community, even if it's not in the form of salaries or getting property from the non-profit, it could just be a shitty and bloated business model where some bank or landlord are getting $10,000/mo, that comes out of the non profit that is getting funded out pockets of artists and musicians and whatnot, somethign like that.

So, if that doesn't worry groundrules, that's fine. I think it should be a big concern for any medium sized city with a smallish arts network because there really are a very finite amount of resources available.

I think Jawbreaker is right. Arguing about this is like arguing about the health care bill, pointless untill there are some facts to argue about.

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:11 pm 
Mechagodzilla

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:08 pm
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adam...i know you are a pragmatic dood that also values integrity in the arts.

and i could prolly envision some worst case scenerios that most people wouldn't even think about.......................................

i am not trying to put words in your mouth...

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:08 am 
Snarf

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i think some of these concerns are unfounded. being an npo, at least legally, the salaries staff can make have to be commiserate. also they will be public so once this thing gets off the ground, you can look up what the staff are making. i'd also say columbus is a big city (i mean, it is a top 20) and we actually have a lot of arts infrastructure here. resources are kind of shitty, relatively speaking. but i think these types of social enterprise npos have a better shot than something that is straight service oriented.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:26 am 
King Ghidorah
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Wesley Flexner wrote:
i plan on going to the launch party and making my opinion from that.
i feel like what has developed from couchfire has been effective, cause while i may not love all the art, it has caused people to be more active.
which keeps creative people in town because they have invested their energy into building something.

so this will prolly continue that.


Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:05 am 
Jet Jaguar
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I'm surprised that this announcement is being met with suspicion and cynicism. The only principal in the initiative that I know personally is Adam Brouillette, and he's been nothing short of a tireless supporter for both individual artists and the larger arts community (OAL, Couchfire, Independents Day, Haiku, etc.). The rest of the players appear to be logical picks in that they come from diverse fields and have a proven track record of starting successful enterprises and supporting the community.

I suppose one could object to the idea of having an above board developer/real estate person on board, but if that's what it takes to keep this from getting shuttered before it matures, then let the man do his job. Will money change hands? Probably. How could it not? Will money be siphoned off by the organizers? Considering their name recognition and investment in the community, that seems unlikely.

...and again, anyone who thinks this is all shit remains free to not get involved. It's easy; don't go to the informational meeting, don't volunteer to help out, don't apply for a space, don't get on the mailing list, and don't sign a lease.

This isn't a zero sum game. Their success doesn't mean someone else has to fail. They're trying get something neat started in a shitty economy. I say let them.


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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:04 am 
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Adam Smith wrote:
I think groundrules is trying to stir up shit


No.

Adam Smith wrote:
I'm saying, generally, that there is a lot of money to be taken from any arts community,


i was disagreeing with this notion. I don't think anyone is getting rich either from artists or as artists in this town. I think we're probably in agreement that the arts here are generally underfunded. My impression is the that the arts community is not an untapped source of cash for fat-cat business people to strip mine. Is anyone buying Hummers and islands with their Junctionview profits?

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:49 am 
Godzilla
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jeff wrote:
Their success doesn't mean someone else has to fail.

That's the point I was trying to make through sarcasm. I don't quite get what the worst case scenario is here. Even if some greedy entity were involved, what exactly is it that they could do to victimize anyone in this thread or any potential consumers of the services? Has there been some talk of convincing Johnny Paintcan or Sally Six-string to invest their busking cash in the business end of the development?

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:52 am 
Godzilla
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http://www.3rdward.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Wonderland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:02 pm 
Jet Jaguar
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underspecialization wrote:
http://www.3rdward.com/

Forgive me for asking, but is that an organization to be emulated, or is it an example of the corporate counterculture fleecing artists?

Being old and not from Brooklyn, I can't always tell the difference.


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