this is gonna be ultra nerd-a-rific, but here goes....

the way i have this set-up in my kick-ass mid-90s PC at home running windows 95 (boo-ya!) is that i have a bookmark that says MUSIC LINKS. in that bookmark lies a bookmark for every state in the U.S., plus bookmarks for various countries. within each STATE bookmark, is a list of cities. for example, in my OHIO bookmark it has bookmarks for Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo, Bowling Green, Youngstown, Athens, Dayton, etc. within each CITY bookmark is a bookmark for BANDS, VENUES, RADIO, MEDIA, STORES as well as lists of websites relevant to the city (anything from music sites to colleges). right now, the only drawback is that if what i'm looking for doesn't have a website, it's not listed. now, most places relevant to music have websites, but some venues, record stores, etc. don't, which has been a bit of a pain in some respects.

i guess what i would like to see is some sort of replication of this, where you figure out the state your looking for, then the city, and then the specific info, whether it's a list of bands to contact to swap shows with, the venues you try to book shows at, or the college radio stations you want to get your cd played at. and it would be really super if there were notes available, like was mentioned with Bernie's description.

i'm guessing this would only take a few thousand hours to complete, eh?

and this doesn't even include the listings of record labels, booking agents, promotions companies, management companies, etc...

first off - hosting is cheap right now. I pay less than $10/mo. for 300MB. Granted there is a limit on traffic, but start small, and if it grows, upgrade. Also, the limit for a site which does not host music samples (or if it does, keeps them small) would not get in the way too much. And as stated, ads can help.

secondly - making a simple, text-based database of contacts, venues, bands, music-based graphic designers, copyright lawyers (maybe), etc is a great idea, but quite daunting as the info changes rapidly.

Are you seeing this as a sort of online-co-op, where members trade contacts, or more of a free-for-all resource page?

Wait a sec, I thought you guys wanted me to open a music venue... MAKE UP YOUR MIND PEOPLE.

Seriously.

Alright, first things first. This proposed site is something that I don't have the time to do.

Second, let's say you wanted to make a website that was a resource for a band to find out about what people really think of a venue in a particular city. Or what bands are hot. Or what places to avoid. Or what Stephen Slaybaugh's phone number is, etc.

To get that information on a national level would require a ton of research and time. And let's say you get to that one glorious day when you have all that info, it'll be out of date. (Can someone say The Factory?)

So unless you have money and a large staff, an undertaking like this is going to be freaking huge and difficult.

Also, what Tankboy said is what I agree with 100%. I like bands connecting in a more organic, less forced way. It will bring about change.

The thing that makes the internet better than any other media is personal connection. Granted, donewaiting.com doesn't have a list of every band, venue and record store in town, but if you sent me an e-mail asking for recommendations I'd probably write you back a three page letter.

To me, that is 500 times better than just plucking it out of a database.

But you gotta send that e-mail.

One thing you should learn about me, I'm often Devil's Advocate. I don't mean to piss people off but I somehow can't help it. That being said, the general consensus is that we should start our very own LocalMusicScene utilizing our own resources, spending our own time and money, etc. That sounds fine and dandy but it sounds to me like not a whole lot of people have a whole lot of time and money which makes me wonder why not give LocalMusicScene a shot? They've already got everything set up and ready to roll. All that we would have to do is provide content which is what we're going to do if we start our own thing, right? And, in neither case will anybody make any money. I'm not in a band so I don't know how tight money is but $50 isn't a whole lot to have 3 songs posted on a site. I mean, you can make $50 on a bad night at Bernie's, right? Well, maybe Bernie's isn't a good example, but you know what I mean.

Perhaps the whole thing is a scam but, as I mentioned earlier, maybe we should watch it for a few months and see how other cities develop their sites. If it looks like a waste of time, then we can forget about it. But, you never know, it could be a good thing, a good resource, and definitely a good replacement for ColumbusMusic.com.

I think the general consensus was to have a database of contact info, not to really have a new columbusmusic.com/localmusic.com.

Regardless of whether localmusicscene.com is a scam, the idea of having a database of sharable info about your scene and having access to similiar info about other scenes is a no brainer to me. Good idea.

Now about doing it yourself from scratch: All the hard work, money, blood, sweat, and tears aside, what you will still be missing after you make this site is being networked with all the other people in other cities making the same site. I'm sure we could easily get Tim's bookmarks online for everone to peruse, but it sure would be nice to have access to Bloomington info written by someone who lives in Bloomington.

Also, banner ads don't make money. That's why this site is asking for $50 bucks.

And I agree with Chip. 50 bucks isn't chicken feed, but I don't think it's gonna break the bank. I know some of you drink 50 dollars worth of beer every week. A good idea might be to have a show with 4 or 5 bands who are interested in trying this thing out and use the door money to pay the setup fees. The total take from a Little Brother's door on a weekend is more than 200 or 250 isn't it?

I'm not in a band and it's not my money so I don't know if my opinion matters much but, I find Jess's optimism inspiring. It's good to keep looking for new things to try. Just don't be broken hearted when the site folds and you lose your 50 bucks. That might happen. But in the meantime you could discover a really cool bar to play at in Parkersburg where the kids buy up all your t-shirts.

Let's keep this discussion going.

Duffy sent me a little love note a couple days ago directing my affection to this thread. I finally had a chance to read it ... and re-read some of it.

Here are my thoughts (deep breath):

[The following is an unpaid advertisement for Cringe.com ... sorta.]

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THEIR LOCAL MUSIC SCENES

I doubt the people behind http://www.localmusicscenes.com are out to scam bands. Chances are they are huge music fans in their respective cities. But certainly they hope to make a little money with their project on such a grand scale. But even with the best of intentions, life happens. People move on, lose interest, burn out, grow apathetic ... whatever. So maybe 2 years from now the site will be a stagnant snapshot of how things were in 2003.

One site isn't going to make or break a band ... but a whole bunch might. So as just a small piece of the puzzle it could be a good resource. $50 isn't that much. And maybe that joint show of bands interested could be taken further and actually be done as a localmusicscenes.com showcase. Don't take that as an endorsement, just an idea to run with.

But as others have said, megasites like this rarely pull together what you would hope. They end up gentrified, skimming the surface, mainstreamed, stagnant and/or a mixture of odd little pockets of mismatched bands who've decided to use or abuse it. The Columbus CitySearch site is a fine example of this these days.

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MY LOCAL MUSIC SCENE

Now as far doing your/our own localscene site goes, a lot of these same issues apply. Sure, I suspect a relatively small group of people could get a decent resource put together. Heck, most of Cringe is done by my hands - no matter how horribly I type. But maintenance can be a bitch. The related admin tasks usually ain't all that fun or intellectually stimulating and the rewards can be few and far between.

Take this as an example or an outlet ... Dealing with updating info for hundreds of nomadic local bands and such is a daunting task that I had come to dread. So about 10 months ago Cringe.com finally switched to a fairly flexible contact section where any kind of local music entity could add, edit and update their own contact info as often as they like:

http://www.cringe.com/current/index.php?name=YellowPHP

This listing includes a free short "Cringe URL" (i.e. http://www.cringe.com/myband) linking directly to their detailed contact info page. The response was minimal for the first few months. At this point in time about 344 local music related entities have registered in this system. About one third of these were entered by staff members or myself.

This was all offered free to a community that to a large extent is familiar with the site. And the site itself has an 8 year history. I know there are many more local music entities than this in Columbus. There are at least twice that many bands alone. Maybe its ugly or confusing or too much work ... or good 'ol apathy that's keeping bands and such from listing their info. I don't know. But do know that this resource is available and open to your input.

I guess what I'm saying is taking advantage of outlets and resources that already exist may be a wise move. Rather than diluting the efforts, you can concentrate them. But I'm also a big believer in supporting those (and "thats") around you. So if you are seriously considering launching your own Columbus version of this, keep in mind Cringe.com has been attempting to this for 8 years. We have some semblance of structure, support, storage and bandwidth in place. We could use your help, input and enthusiasm.

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JOBS AND ART

I'm very much of the same mind set as Mr. Gerken when it comes to "the separation of profit and art." You have a job to pay the bills and so you don't have to sacrifice your art to make money. Of course there are exceptions and huge philosophical implications here that I'm sure Dan could probably state much more succinctly and intelligently than I. Besides that's getting off topic, so I'll stop at that.

The point is sites like Donewaiting.com and Cringe.com are largely done as overgrown hobbies, not for profit. Sure, Cringe.com makes a few bucks here and there with ads, shows, comps,mailings and hosting. But it comes nowhere near paying for my time, hardware, software, and our new hosting costs. That's why i have a part time day job that just happens to provide me with great hours, full benefits and decent pay.

Sometimes I'm even in a position where my job and hobbies overlap. At the day job we recently started working on a bunch of the Ohio Arts Council sites (http://ColumbusArts.com/, http://ExperienceColumbus.com/, http://ArtsInOhio.com/, http://www.gcac.org/, etc.). One of the most intriguing ones is http://www.OhioEventFinder.com. This is a centralized database of events around Ohio which is leveraged by many organizations throughout the state. So local Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus arts councils and visitors bureaus all pull from this same database. Smart. Nice. Centralized. Of course, they don't generally list bars and such we'd be interested in, but the idea and infrastructure makes for a decent model.

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NOSTALGIA AND ORIGINS

Try the Web version of the very first hard copy/email of Cringe:

http://www.cringe.com/issues/5.1/

Or what's left of the old gig swapping emailing list I used to run:

http://www.cringe.com/amam/


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DoneRambling.