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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:11 pm 
King Ghidorah
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Cookie wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
timstepford wrote:
Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.


It does if you own the barstool.


I am so not going to your bar.


My bar would be Non-Masterbation/Non-smoking. And it would have Stroh's longnecks.


Hmmm...Phallic imagery if I ever heard it...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:20 pm 
[quote="eboe"oh, and no bar is gonna honor a request from a band of no smoking shows, not from some little local band. sorry, we're not all well known jazz moozishuns like yourself...[/quote]

Ok why not?

Unless you are afraid it just might be bad for business on that night?

From the tone of this board, the place would probably be packed and people would have to be turned away.

To the other poster. Toledo and Columbus is sure a more realistic comparison of cities of the same demographic than ANY of the comparisons of Columbus to NYC.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:34 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff
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LLDrumgirl wrote:
To the other poster. Toledo and Columbus is sure a more realistic comparison of cities of the same demographic than ANY of the comparisons of Columbus to NYC.


I'm "the other poster." I was mostly just cracking a joke at Toledo's expense, but since my life has been threatened ( :D ) and you're isolating the comment, I'll respond:

I didn't say anything about NYC. You did. But, if you're looking to other examples, how about Minneapolis, Eugene, Bloomington, etc... Californial... Massechusettes....

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:35 pm 
Jawbreaker wrote:
LLDrumgirl wrote:
These people do not agree and they are the ones who are directly effected.

http://www.barpac.org/members.htm



Are they paying you?


No. I did make a small donation to the organization after going to a couple of meetings, seeing how hard it is right now for these folks. Some of these folks are close to my parents age and are having business troubles from this nonsense after running a successful business for years.

I let them know who I was as I am not a club owner or bartender.
I sure didn't want them to think I was some nanny plant sent in by Rob Crane.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:41 pm 
groundrules wrote:
LLDrumgirl wrote:
To the other poster. Toledo and Columbus is sure a more realistic comparison of cities of the same demographic than ANY of the comparisons of Columbus to NYC.


I'm "the other poster." I was mostly just cracking a joke at Toledo's expense, but since my life has been threatened ( :D ) and you're isolating the comment, I'll respond:

I didn't say anything about NYC. You did. But, if you're looking to other examples, how about Minneapolis, Eugene, Bloomington, etc... Californial... Massechusettes....


NYC has been brought up numerous times on these related threads. Toledo and Columbus are quite similar in demographic.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:43 pm 
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LLDrumgirl wrote:
NYC has been brought up numerous times on these related threads. Toledo and Columbus are quite similar in demographic.


I guess that's easier than admitting that you were wrong and addressing his very valid point.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:53 pm 
There has been plenty talk of the negative effects of bans on business in a number of these places. Starting looking on the net and you'll find them.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:05 pm 
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LLDrumgirl wrote:
There has been plenty talk of the negative effects of bans on business in a number of these places. Starting looking on the net and you'll find them.


and an equal number of studies citing no negative, or even positive economic effect. really.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:41 pm 
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groundrules wrote:
LLDrumgirl wrote:
There has been plenty talk of the negative effects of bans on business in a number of these places. Starting looking on the net and you'll find them.


and an equal number of studies citing no negative, or even positive economic effect. really.


As we have learned, LLDrumgirl only believes what she wants to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:12 pm 
Mechagodzilla
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timstepford wrote:
Hell, why don't we put all "laws" up for a "vote" everyday? That way, depending on my mood, I can get to decide on a daily basis whether, for example, I want to even the playing field with smokers, and make justifiable homocide include anyone who exhales smoke within five feet of a non-smoker. A little quid pro quo, I say. Really, I'd just be defending myself from an airborne bio-terror agent as I see it.


Move to Florida, your agrument would stand up in court there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:05 pm 
Mechagodzilla
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timstepford wrote:
To (once again) paraphrase Jon Stewart: Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.


I'd be happy to have quite a few people masturbating next to me, neither you or Jon Stewart though. Does this mean I should only support attractive women smoking in bars?? I can live with that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:26 pm 
King Ghidorah
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There's a pretty good article on some of the leadership of both sides of this debate in the new issue of Columbus Monthly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:29 pm 
Mothra
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Studies are funny, especially when there is political motivation behind them.
To me the debate on the smoking ban is very similar to debates on pollution from coal-burning power plants or on global-warming.
There are studies to show that mercury emissions from coal-burning power plants are prevalent in the fish we eat. Then, there are studies that are used by the Bush administration to show that their Clear Skies Initiative will reduce mercury emissions. Then, there are studies that say that the Clear Skies Initiative will actually allow an increase of Mercury emissions.
There are studies that say that humans have caused global-warming. The Bush administration says that the jury is still out.
Usually, the Bush administration will side with power plants that cause pollution because of economics. It would be expensive and difficult to force power plants to pollute less or convert to environment friendly forms of power generation. So they will tend to believe studies that allow them to stick with the coal-burning power plants.
I believe the studies that say that we are polluting too much and causing global-warming because I don't see any reason for those studies to lie.
Similarly, I don't see any reason why studies that say that second-hand smoke is a health hazard would lie. What would the health officials have to gain from that? Furthermore, I have conducted my own "study," and I know from personal experience that second-hand smoke affects my health negatively.
What is the motivation behind BarPAC's studies? Financial gain? (I guess that depends on whether you believe their findings or not.) Let's suppose their study is true and the second-hand smoke study is true. Maybe the bars in Columbus have lost some revenue. But at what price are they damaging the health of their employees and their clientele.
In the 80's, when the medical community was deciding whether or not to test blood donors for AIDS, those against testing cited the costs. Those who were for testing, cited the risk to human lives.
It's always the same. Pollution versus environment. Testing for AIDS versus not testing for AIDS. Smoking in bars versus Smoking Ban. It always comes down to Money versus Human Life.
Studies are funny, but I tend to believe the ones that are for human life despite what they mean to economics.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:43 pm 
King Ghidorah
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Has anyone considered that maybe part of the reason the bars aren't doing well is because everyone is fucking broke and drinking at home, or that the issue is more about the age old struggle to get people to come to see local shows?

Honestly, my smoker friends have not really been deterred from their public alcoholism- they just step outside. (Which is not to say they don't bitch about it.) Bar culture has relied heavily on smokers for I don't know how many years. So yes, if the ban continues, there will be a lag in attendance and business may suffer as a direct cause of this, but assuming that non-smokers will eventually become part of the bar culture, business will pick up and possibly increase. The gamble is whether or not there are enough non-smoking alcoholics in Columbus to compensate for lost business, or whether or not bars can successfully create a new bar culture.

P.S. Bar owners don't give a fuck about yr "democratic rights" anymore than the cigarette companies do.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 9:15 pm 
Cookie wrote:
groundrules wrote:
LLDrumgirl wrote:
There has been plenty talk of the negative effects of bans on business in a number of these places. Starting looking on the net and you'll find them.


and an equal number of studies citing no negative, or even positive economic effect. really.


As we have learned, LLDrumgirl only believes what she wants to believe.


That can also be said for some others.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:04 am 
Donewaiting.com Staff
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I'm in NJ today so I can't get to vote. I should have looked into absentee if they had them for this election, but I didn't.

1. I don't think the ban has been in effect long enough for us to really see what sort of impact this has.

2. For every story of a venue that is losing business, you can probably find one where they are gaining business, sustaining business, or some other combination. Which of those do you support? It's a tough call.

3. I am not a small business owner. I can imagine the hardships it is to pour your heart into something that puts food on the table of your family. But if I did own a bar, I would just fucking adapt to it. Change my menu, clean the place up, do whatever I can to keep the place going. I mean, the Dube did it, right? And that place was #1 Smoker Lover World.

Columbus voted for Kerry, but it also voted for the gay marriage ban, right? I can't remember. I say we just say that gay people want to smoke in bars and we'll keep it non-smoking forever.

(that's a joke)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:25 am 
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LLDrumgirl wrote:
That can also be said for some others.


Really? Do you have any examples as blatant as this?

LLDrumgirl wrote:
It is because I do not buy the 53K figures on second hand smoke and this is what all the bans are based on.

It has nothing to do with primary smoking if you will allow me that much.

All the bans are built on second hand smoke studies that have yet to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.


groundrules wrote:
LLDrumgirl wrote:

What we have here is a good cause—smoke-free living—threatened by hyperbole about [negative economic effects]

fixed.



Nice of you.

I can't answer your question about economics with stats, as it is not my area. I suggest you interview some of the BarPac members concerning that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:16 pm 
King Ghidorah
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robertduffy wrote:
Columbus voted for Kerry, but it also voted for the gay marriage ban, right? I can't remember. I say we just say that gay people want to smoke in bars and we'll keep it non-smoking forever.
(that's a joke)


All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:35 pm 
Godzilla
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beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Athens County, Ohio is more dangerous to America than the Nazis, Al Qaeda, the Civil War, the Communists, the French, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Canada COMBINED.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:55 pm 
King Ghidorah
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viva la revolution! Athens county, even more liberal than Greene county, the home of Yellow Springs... whodathunkit? Right there in the middle of smalltown Appalachia...
Well, I voted today.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:36 pm 
Mothra

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timstepford wrote:
beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Athens County, Ohio is more dangerous to America than the Nazis, Al Qaeda, the Civil War, the Communists, the French, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Canada COMBINED.


yeah, those damn Canadians! ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:44 pm 
Godzilla
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beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Does somebody have a source for this stat? I find it hard to believe that Franklin county supported the gay marriage ban. I've heard a statistic that Columbus has the 3rd highest per capita gay population in the US. (I'd like a source on that too, though).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:52 pm 
King Ghidorah
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IHateAndieMacDowell wrote:
beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Does somebody have a source for this stat?


Here you go:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004//pages ... y.000.html

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:52 pm 
Mechagodzilla
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IHateAndieMacDowell wrote:
beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Does somebody have a source for this stat? I find it hard to believe that Franklin county supported the gay marriage ban. I've heard a statistic that Columbus has the 3rd highest per capita gay population in the US. (I'd like a source on that too, though).


http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos//results/2004/gen/Issue1.htm



edit due to freak circumstance:

man, i had to wait in line for 4 seconds at my polling place today. what a travesty! when will these boards of elections learn?

seriously, there were still only 4 voting machines for my precinct, but i doubt they'll get as much use as they did last november.

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Last edited by justin on Tue May 03, 2005 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:52 pm 
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IHateAndieMacDowell wrote:
beth wrote:
All of Ohio voted for the gay marriage ban- except Athens County.


Does somebody have a source for this stat? I find it hard to believe that Franklin county supported the gay marriage ban. I've heard a statistic that Columbus has the 3rd highest per capita gay population in the US. (I'd like a source on that too, though).


This is all I could find, and it looks like it lost in every county.

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