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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:57 am 
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fotobass wrote:
Cookie wrote:
fotobass wrote:
Well, there's the case I cited above, as well as several articles in the Dispatch I've seen in the last few months...you know, the 'heartstrings/feature/single-mom-as-a-waitress' type of thing.

I remember the article about that bar I mentioned above spceifically because it's about 1/2 mile from where I live, and I know one of the bartenders there. This was the place that decided not to enforce the ban and pay the fines as long as he could, because he felt that up to a point, it'd be more cost-effective than losing a large percentage of his customer base.


That's what you call anecdotal evidence. I want to see the "hundreds of people who lost their jobs." I want to see the "35% drop in business." I want to see my "increased tax burden."


If I may refer you to my original post...

fotobass wrote:

Well. anecdotally,


Don't make me refer you to my original post.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:58 am 
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Cookie, you have a point. But it's really beyond the means/scope of a local political organization/advocacy group to conduct such a complex economical analysis/study. Different bars, with different clientele, with different thresholds of tolerance (varying elasticities, etc...)

In light of that, I don't think relying on anecdotal evidence and/or a priori arguments is out of bounds.

Which is not to say the the BarPAC people are providing competent arguments.


So are you suggesting that they simply made up those "facts?"

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:59 am 
Godzilla
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Cookie wrote:
"increased tax burden."


This is also a claim made by the anti-smoking people, completely unsupported, BTW.


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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:01 pm 
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Cookie wrote:
So are you suggesting that they simply made up those "facts?"


I haven't parsed their "facts", so I don't know. But it seems they're not doing a very competent job.


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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:03 pm 
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fotobass wrote:
Cookie wrote:

That's what you call anecdotal evidence. I want to see the "hundreds of people who lost their jobs." I want to see the "35% drop in business." I want to see my "increased tax burden."


If I may refer you to my original post...

fotobass wrote:

Well. anecdotally,


Don't make me refer you to my original post.


Not sure what I missed, so feel free. I just meant that I know that it was anecdotal ...that's why I said it was.

So out of curiousity, how do you want to 'see' evidence? Apparently a man being willing to break the law because of its effect on his business isn't doing it for you...are you looking for an independant study or something?

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:07 pm 
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fotobass wrote:
Not sure what I missed, so feel free. I just meant that I know that it was anecdotal ...that's why I said it was.

So out of curiousity, how do you want to 'see' evidence? Apparently a man being willing to break the law because of its effect on his business isn't doing it for you...are you looking for an independant study or something?


I said that I wanted BarPAC to back up the statements on their front page.

http://www.barpac.org/index.htm

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Cookie wrote:
fotobass wrote:
Not sure what I missed, so feel free. I just meant that I know that it was anecdotal ...that's why I said it was.

So out of curiousity, how do you want to 'see' evidence? Apparently a man being willing to break the law because of its effect on his business isn't doing it for you...are you looking for an independant study or something?


I said that I wanted BarPAC to back up the statements on their front page.

http://www.barpac.org/index.htm


Well, I just emailed 'em and asked. We'll see what they say.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:13 pm 
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fotobass wrote:
Well, I just emailed 'em and asked. We'll see what they say.


Oh goodie!

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:17 pm 
King Ghidorah
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Cookie wrote:
fotobass wrote:
Well, I just emailed 'em and asked. We'll see what they say.


Oh goodie!


Okay, lemme get this straight. You want them to support their facts, but you don't want someone to ask them? Or you're just expecting them to lie? Or you already don't believe whatever the answer may be?

I guess I'm saving any facetiousness 'til they answer.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:21 pm 
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fotobass wrote:
Okay, lemme get this straight. You want them to support their facts, but you don't want someone to ask them? Or you're just expecting them to lie? Or you already don't believe whatever the answer may be?

I guess I'm saving any facetiousness 'til they answer.


What? I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:23 pm 
King Ghidorah
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Cookie wrote:
fotobass wrote:
Okay, lemme get this straight. You want them to support their facts, but you don't want someone to ask them? Or you're just expecting them to lie? Or you already don't believe whatever the answer may be?

I guess I'm saving any facetiousness 'til they answer.


What? I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say.


Sorry...I took 'Goodie' as snarky. Apology offered.

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 Post subject: Re: VOTE TUESDAY
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:24 pm 
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fotobass wrote:
Sorry...I took 'Goodie' as snarky. Apology offered.


Accepted. Thank you.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:26 pm 
Godzilla
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Quote:
The current Smoking Ban is a Jobs Killer. Hundreds of hospitality industry jobs have been lost in Columbus due to the current smoking ban.

The current Smoking Ban Punishes Employers. Columbus bars have seen a 35% drop in revenue since the ban took effect. The drop in revenue is devastating these small business owners.

The current Smoking Ban Punishes Taxpayers
The loss of jobs and drops in revenues means less tax revenue being generated which creates an additional burden to the taxpayer.


These should be easily addressed by them revealing their methodology.

Quote:
Columbus is at a Competitive Disadvantage
The fact is, the current ban has made Columbus an island in a sea of communities with no smoking ban - because most suburban communities around our city have no smoking ban. In fact, many bars on the edge of the city are seeing their former customers cross the street to go to bars just outside the city where they are allowed to smoke. The fact is, smokers who used to come to Columbus bars are continuing to smoke, they are just taking their money outside the city and to private clubs where they are permitted to smoke. That places hundreds of small businesses in Columbus at a competitive disadvantage, and means reduced tax revenue for cash-strapped Columbus.


Certainly true making a priori arguments; Google "the law of comparative advantage"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:30 pm 
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Quote:
Columbus is at a Competitive Disadvantage
The fact is, the current ban has made Columbus an island in a sea of communities with no smoking ban - because most suburban communities around our city have no smoking ban. In fact, many bars on the edge of the city are seeing their former customers cross the street to go to bars just outside the city where they are allowed to smoke. The fact is, smokers who used to come to Columbus bars are continuing to smoke, they are just taking their money outside the city and to private clubs where they are permitted to smoke. That places hundreds of small businesses in Columbus at a competitive disadvantage, and means reduced tax revenue for cash-strapped Columbus.


Certainly true making a priori arguments; Google "the law of comparative advantage"


Am I mistaken, or are they holding their "victory party" at a suburban bar outside of Columbus proper?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:38 pm 
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this is why I said:

MAKE IT A FUCKING LAW FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING STATE.

then there will be no more bitching.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:39 pm 
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eboe wrote:
this is why I said:

MAKE IT A FUCKING LAW FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING STATE.

then there will be no more bitching.


Except in border areas.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:39 pm 
Godzilla
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Cookie wrote:
Am I mistaken, or are they holding their "victory party" at a suburban bar outside of Columbus proper?


Actually, I believe that is in Columbus.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck, and I'm not sure even the people advocating it realize the unintended consequences should it pass. Certaintly wouldn't be the first time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:40 pm 
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Everyone needs to go and vote.

Yes on Issue 2

O Shaughnessy and Mary Jo Hudson for city council


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:43 pm 
Godzilla
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Cookie wrote:
eboe wrote:
]MAKE IT A FUCKING LAW FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING STATE.


Except in border areas.



Why not just ban smoking entirely at the Federal level?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:43 pm 
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Actually, I believe that is in Columbus.


Oh. The address is in Worthington.

Quote:
This whole thing is a clusterfuck, and I'm not sure even the people advocating it realize the unintended consequences should it pass. Certaintly wouldn't be the first time.


I certainly don't want to hear any crap about "big goverment" from the supporters.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:45 pm 
Godzilla
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Cookie wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
Actually, I believe that is in Columbus.


Oh. The address is in Worthington.


Could be, It's kinda on the border. I think I may have actually been to that bar once.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:50 pm 
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To quote not-my-favorite author Christopher Hitchens:

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

If these businesses are legit and have been keeping proper receipts/records, they should have plenty of data to compare year by year and show a trend that reflects their claims.

AND

To (once again) paraphrase Jon Stewart: Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:53 pm 
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timstepford wrote:
Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.


It does if you own the barstool.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:59 pm 
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Jawbreaker wrote:
timstepford wrote:
Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.


It does if you own the barstool.


I am so not going to your bar.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:04 pm 
Godzilla
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Cookie wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
timstepford wrote:
Smoking is like masturbation, just because you have the right to do it, doesn't mean you should be able to do it on the bar stool next to me.


It does if you own the barstool.


I am so not going to your bar.


My bar would be Non-Masterbation/Non-smoking. And it would have Stroh's longnecks.


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