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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:04 pm 
Godzilla
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Jawbreaker wrote:
timstepford wrote:
too bad for you, huh...


No. I would say: instead of abolishing Freedoms of Association, Assembly, Speech, and Property, those wishing to fight racism should pool their (own) resources to help those affected, in whatever manner they deem necessary. Some examples: social/economic ostracization, rallying the necessary resources to provide "non-racist" medical care, transportation/relocation etc...


No, I'm sorry, but I think A) your over-reaching and B) people can choose to leave society and be racists off on their own. A racist or bigoted doctor simply shouldn't be allowed to practice. If they want to trump the basic tennents of their profession for racist or bigoted beliefs, they can live in the woods on nuts and berries. The left has been far far far to easy on this. They want to mediate, they want to protest, they want to "deal." Fuck that. I'm tired of that. You don't bring a knife to gun fight, you bring a bazooka.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 pm 
Godzilla
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Jawbreaker wrote:
1. I didn't read the article, but doctors should be able to decide who their patients are under any circumstances.


I was going to respond "no" on grounds of the hippocratic oath, but then I actually read it. Does this thing really hold up? Do they really still use this thing?

Quote:
I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and AEsculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation -- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons labouring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.


I understand the "business plan" theory of letting doctors refuse treatment (and they may fail by suffering boycott). I even understand that allowing doctors to refuse treatment might avoid a bigoted doctor giving shoddy treatment to someone he/she didn't want to treat.

But I think the point is, that a doctor should be a person who is willing to medically help another human being no matter the circumstance. If a person is suffering, a doctor is commited to helping said person. A doctor who refuses to treat any human being, is not really a doctor at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:09 pm 
Godzilla
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I'm sorry, but I think A) your over-reaching and B) people can choose to leave society and be gays off on their own. A gay or gay-loving doctor simply shouldn't be allowed to practice. If they want to trump the basic tennents of their profession for gay beliefs, they can live in the woods on nuts and berries. The right has been far far far to easy on this. They want to mediate, they want to protest, they want to "deal." Fuck that. I'm tired of that. You don't bring a knife to gun fight, you bring a bazooka.



how does that sound?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:10 pm 
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I think A) your over-reaching and B) people can choose to leave society and be gays off on their own. A gay or gay-loving doctor simply shouldn't be allowed to practice. If they want to trump the basic tennents of their profession for gay beliefs, they can live in the woods on nuts and berries. The right has been far far far to easy on this. They want to mediate, they want to protest, they want to "deal." Fuck that. I'm tired of that. You don't bring a knife to gun fight, you bring a bazooka.



how does that sound?


Like you're trying too hard.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:15 pm 
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So I just spoke with two of my good doctor friends about this since reading the thread yesterday. They both confirmed two things-

1) This is basically how it works now anyway. No doctor is obliged to treat anyone they don't want to unless it's an emergency situation.
Much the same way that a lawyer is not obliged to defend a person they believe is guilty. With medicine, there are some caveats though, concerning whether it's an established relationship, continuing care, etc. You can dump a patient, but you have to give 30 days notice and a referral.

2) Doesn't apply to emergencies, as stated above.

Other points they make: if your doctor doesn't respect you as a person, or want to hear about how your lifestyle may effect your health, you don't want to be treated by that doctor anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:55 pm 
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groundrules wrote:
Much the same way that a lawyer is not obliged to defend a person they believe is guilty.


A bit off topic but there are some situations where this isn't the case.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:15 pm 
Godzilla
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Jawbreaker wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I think A) your over-reaching and B) people can choose to leave society and be gays off on their own. A gay or gay-loving doctor simply shouldn't be allowed to practice. If they want to trump the basic tennents of their profession for gay beliefs, they can live in the woods on nuts and berries. The right has been far far far to easy on this. They want to mediate, they want to protest, they want to "deal." Fuck that. I'm tired of that. You don't bring a knife to gun fight, you bring a bazooka.


how does that sound?


like poop falling from a dogs ass.

them being gay doesn't affect anyone. a doctor refusing to attend to a patient because of skin pigment is potentially putting a person in danger. they shouldn't be a doctor, they should be a grand wizard in the KKK.

liberals, left, democrats, whatever category you want to lump people in, have been far to accomodating. there have to be consequences for bigotry and racism beyond ineffectual boycotts and protests.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:23 pm 
Godzilla
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timstepford wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I think A) your over-reaching and B) people can choose to leave society and be gays off on their own. A gay or gay-loving doctor simply shouldn't be allowed to practice. If they want to trump the basic tennents of their profession for gay beliefs, they can live in the woods on nuts and berries. The right has been far far far to easy on this. They want to mediate, they want to protest, they want to "deal." Fuck that. I'm tired of that. You don't bring a knife to gun fight, you bring a bazooka.


how does that sound?


like poop falling from a dogs ass.

them being gay doesn't affect anyone. a doctor refusing to attend to a patient because of skin pigment is potentially putting a person in danger. they shouldn't be a doctor, they should be a grand wizard in the KKK.

liberals, left, democrats, whatever category you want to lump people in, have been far to accomodating. there have to be consequences for bigotry and racism beyond ineffectual boycotts and protests.


Perhaps they could be imprisoned for crimethink?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:42 pm 
Mechagodzilla
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Jawbreaker wrote:
timstepford wrote:
too bad for you, huh...


No. I would say: instead of abolishing Freedoms of Association, Assembly, Speech, and Property, those wishing to fight racism should pool their (own) resources to help those affected, in whatever manner they deem necessary. Some examples: social/economic ostracization, rallying the necessary resources to provide "non-racist" medical care, transportation/relocation etc...


Do you actually believe that purely libertarian ideals could ever actually work or are you just interested attempting to apply the theory to every situation out an academic interest? Pure libertarianism is about as realistic as achieving pure communism. They both go so far in opposite directions they are nearly the same theory.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:14 pm 
Godzilla
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We could just all go back to survival of the fittest. Whomever's got better aim wins.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:57 pm 
Godzilla
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Spliney wrote:
Do you actually believe that purely libertarian ideals could ever actually work or are you just interested attempting to apply the theory to every situation out an academic interest? Pure libertarianism is about as realistic as achieving pure communism. They both go so far in opposite directions they are nearly the same theory.


Well put.

Milton Friedman lost the debate to David Miller, IMHO (and many others'), and Robert Nozick lost the debate to John Rawls. Just a quickie.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:39 pm 
Godzilla
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Nice red shorts! wrote:
Milton Friedman lost the debate to David Miller, IMHO (and many others'), and Robert Nozick lost the debate to John Rawls. Just a quickie.


Except Milton Friedman isn't a "Libertarian". And while Nozick made many important contributions to libertarian theory, there are numerous solid criticisms of Nozick/Randian minarchism.

One of many examples--Nozick, Anarchism, and Procedural Rights. For a light overview of these criticisms, as well as some touching on the differences between the Chicago School (mainly "minarchist", "conservative") and The Austrian School (mainly "anarchist", "libertarian"), also see Hans Hoppe's introduction to Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty. (He even touches on Rawls).

To posit that Nozick is the "spokesperson" of Libertarianism, is dubious at best.


Last edited by Jawbreaker on Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:56 am 
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Umm - wow

just for the record, I attended a VERY conservative church as a kid, in which we prayed every Sunday for the patients at the local hospice for terminal AIDS patients and made a donation every month. Homosexuality was not accepted at my church, but every effort was made to help alleviate the suffering of dying homosexuals, it was part of our budget. I cannot square turning down health care for someone who is sick based on religious grounds. I would like to read the language of this bill, or what its supporters think they are doing, I am astonished!

Certainly there are times when one might object to a treatment in principle. For example, I know some addictionologists won't use medicine to get people off drugs, because they think it reinforces the dependency tendencies of the addict. But refusing to use a technique on grounds of principle is a lot different than refusing to see a patient. If I was a doctor, I would send someone elsewhere for the morning after pill, it is against my religion and I see nothing wrong with a Catholic doctor wanting to stay out of that. But refusing to treat a pregnant girl because she is unmarried seems pretty bizarre.

I kind of agree with JAwbreaker that legislating tolerance is not always a good idea, but a doctor should not have to be legislated into treating people he disagrees with. For heaven's sake!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:36 am 
Godzilla
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williamcompanyman wrote:
legislating tolerance


and I would add that nearly every instance of Fascism has been brought about under guise of some "noble goal" or purpose.

For the record, I find the suspension of homosexual's rights abhorrent.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:37 am 
Mechagodzilla
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Jawbreaker wrote:
For the record, I find the suspension of homosexual's rights abhorrent.


I never had any doubt that this is true.

Jawbreaker wrote:
I would add that nearly every instance of Fascism has been brought about under guise of some "noble goal" or purpose.


In this case it is a piece of legislation allowing doctors to discriminate against a group of people they feel to be unworthy. So is it your position that this isn’t fascism?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:43 pm 
Godzilla
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Ok, back to the topic at hand, at least someone is using their brain:

Quote:
April 1, 2005 (CHICAGO) — Governor Rod Blagojevich today filed an emergency rule with the Illinois Secretary of State's office requiring birth control prescriptions be filled without delay at pharmacies selling contraceptives.

Under the rule, if the contraceptive is not in stock, the pharmacy must order it or, if the patient prefers, transfer the prescription to a nearby pharmacy.

If the pharmacist does not fill the prescription because of a moral objection, another pharmacist must be available to fill it. The emergency rule takes effect immediately and stays in effect for 150 days.

Blagojevich is a result of a Chicago pharmacist recently refusing to fill orders for contraceptives because of moral opposition.

The Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation has cited the Osco pharmacy where the incident occurred for "failing to provide appropriate pharmaceutical care to a patient." Link

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:04 pm 
Godzilla
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NPR story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4573636

I'm curious why anyone would be surprised; that when the distribution of contraceptives (or healthcare in general) is put under political control, that the distribution of contraceptives is the subject of politics (!?)

I just cannot understand how anyone, especially "feminists" are not outraged that they have to ask the government for permission to purchase contraceptives.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:17 pm 
Godzilla
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Spliney wrote:
So is it your position that this isn’t fascism?



..to answer your question, in a sense, no. Since doctors enjoy a State-enforced monopoly on providing healthcare, I have no problem with them being compelled to provide their services to the public "equally". Doctors forgo their Rights when they participate in the current "system". Thus many current and potential medical professionals opt for other fields-- resulting in a shortage of medical professionals, or increased costs for healthcare.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:19 pm 
Godzilla
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It's not that we're asking the government for permission, Jawbreaker. It's wise for women to seek out the advice of a doctor when they get contraceptives because certain women don't mix with certain contraceptives. So it's good for women to get medical advice before starting birth control.

That being said, guys can pick up condoms whenever they want. Or they can get the snippy snip and we ladies don't have to worry about anything at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:06 am 
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corggirl wrote:
That being said, guys can pick up condoms whenever they want.

except UDF (as far as I know) nor can you purchase razors here. UDF wants us to be hairy and celibate.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:27 am 
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beth wrote:
UDF wants us to be hairy and celibate.


Pssh! like i need their help...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:51 pm 
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This is FUCKED up... I quit. I'm running off to some cabin in Montana and letting my legs get hairy and foraging for food in the wilderness.

My guess is that this will be fought by the ACLU. Fuckin' religious right nutjobs!!! This country is headed toward a theocracy and quick. Kind of funny since it was founded to avoid religious persecution. I guess I'll be considered a heathen.

I WISH my pharmacist would refuse my Depo shot, I will make a scene rivaling anything Sean Penn has done. I sorta kinda secretly wish it would happen...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:19 am 
Mechagodzilla
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Trixie wrote:
This is FUCKED up... I quit. I'm running off to some cabin in Montana and letting my legs get hairy and foraging for food in the wilderness.


let me know if you need gas money or a bus ticket.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:18 pm 
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Good to see in my absence, Cookie has found someone else to bully. Nice werk! Keep the pithy insults coming, oh moral marauder, lovely cyber crusader!

Bawahahahahahahahaha!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:21 pm 
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annie oakley wrote:
Good to see in my absence, Cookie has found someone else to bully. Nice werk! Keep the pithy insults coming, oh moral marauder, lovely cyber crusader!

Bawahahahahahahahaha!


You didn't think you were special, did you? I mean, I'm sure your parents said that you were, but they meant retarded.

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