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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:49 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/taubmancenter/pdfs/working_papers/richmond_99_systems.pdf


I'll see your 10 year old study from a student at Harvard and raise you feasibility studies from 7 cities of varying sizes:

http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/streetcarstudy/
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/pages/-16338-/
http://www.tucsontransitstudy.com/
http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development.pdf
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/city/downl ... f16341.pdf
http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/publ ... chartaylor
http://www.charlesstreet.org/PDF/final%20report-cxm.pdf
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/public- ... on_PSC.pdf


p.s. I remember you being more clever tuxspeedo...must have been someone else.


Last edited by PinheadFestival on Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:50 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01984.pdf

Quote:
A number of transit options are available to communities to help address
growing traffic congestion. One such option is Bus Rapid Transit. Bus
Rapid Transit is an emerging approach to using buses as an improved highspeed
transit system. By employing innovative technologies such as signal
prioritization, better stations or shelters, fewer stops, and faster service on
more attractive vehicles, Bus Rapid Transit shows promise in meeting a
variety of transit needs. In addition, in many communities Bus Rapid
Transit systems can have lower capital costs than Light Rail systems yet
can often provide similar performance. Further, Bus Rapid Transit’s
flexibility may be a potentially valuable feature for many communities with
sprawling patterns of development, where public transportation needs can
be more complex and difficult to address than focusing on a single central
business district.



I'm not remotely opposed to BRT jaw, I think however, and I'll check later, that there actually was a COTA or city study of BRT in Columbus and for whatever reason it was passed over.

EDIT: It may have been, but this is only half remembering, that BRT was more of an "all or nothing" system, whereas light rail could be incremental.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:57 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:32 pm
Posts: 994
Location: burbleville
tuxspeedo wrote:
the only way I'm gettin on this is if it's called the INDIE-RAIL.


we need to name this thing now. my suggestion: rice-a-roni ponies
sqr wrote:
Seriously. Columbus is HORRIBLE for food. Possibly the worst city I've ever been in food-wise. Even simple thing like pizza, never would have thought of Green Bay as a great pizza town, but that place has a fraction of the population of Columbus and I can name three pizza places in the area I lived in there that are significantly better than all the places everyone around here says are the best.

What is there for cheap food here too? We have so much cheap authentic Mexican food in Green Bay. Mom and pop taquerias where you can get a day's worth of food for under five bucks. Haven't even found a decent burrito here yet.


way too many chains in town, but there is great food all over columbus and it's 'burbs if you take the time to look. there have been 8 page threads on this board about the best whatever.

seriously, you're not looking hard enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:04 am 
Godzilla
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If it's "feasible" why does the government have to do it, and why not put a tax up for a vote?


http://debunkingportland.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:06 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
If it's "feasible" why does the government have to do it, and why not put a tax up for a vote?


http://debunkingportland.com/


Come on now jaw...surely you can do better than that site...


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:08 am 
Jet Jaguar
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:21 am
Posts: 232
PinheadFestival wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
If it's "feasible" why does the government have to do it, and why not put a tax up for a vote?


http://debunkingportland.com/


Come on now jaw...surely you can do better than that site...


That Harvard PDF he posted was a good start

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:09 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Donkey Kong wrote:
That Harvard PDF he posted was a good start


except that it was a student paper from 10 years ago...

EDIT: Other reports from Portland...
http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/view/ ... bid=700170
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.c ... n+Portland
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.c ... e=20030113
http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... cars_x.htm


Last edited by PinheadFestival on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:21 am 
Jet Jaguar
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:21 am
Posts: 232
PinheadFestival wrote:
Donkey Kong wrote:
That Harvard PDF he posted was a good start


except that it was a student paper from 10 years ago...


yeah, umm, a fulbright scholar for transporations studies at MIT.. and a fellow at the jfk school of govt at harvard... and he he received a masters and doctoral at MIT... and was a policy advisor to the chair of the la county transporation commission....

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:41 am 
Jet Jaguar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:38 pm
Posts: 166
mr. lady wrote:
way too many chains in town, but there is great food all over columbus and it's 'burbs if you take the time to look. there have been 8 page threads on this board about the best whatever.

seriously, you're not looking hard enough.


Well, I live near Hudson and 4th and I no longer own a vehicle or have money to take cabs. I've never had to scour a city's suburbs before to find a decent cheap meal and I've traveled and lived all over the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:16 am 
Godzilla
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sqr wrote:
Well, I live near Hudson and 4th and I no longer own a vehicle or have money to take cabs. I've never had to scour a city's suburbs before to find a decent cheap meal and I've traveled and lived all over the world.

Well, it's not the problem of the Starliner Diner or Thurman's Cafe (or other places already mentioned) that your only mode of transportation is your feet. They're among many local, unique and reasonably priced dining options that I've found by asking around over the years. I dunno, get a bike, they're good for six months a year.

However, there is no good pizza in Columbus. A few places try, but none get it quite right.

Here's my theory why - Columbus doesn't have the background of, say, Cleveland, Green Bay or (my hometown) Buffalo. You go to cities with long histories and diverse cultural/ethnic backgrounds, you get really good food.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:17 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
sqr wrote:
mr. lady wrote:
way too many chains in town, but there is great food all over columbus and it's 'burbs if you take the time to look. there have been 8 page threads on this board about the best whatever.

seriously, you're not looking hard enough.


Well, I live near Hudson and 4th and I no longer own a vehicle or have money to take cabs. I've never had to scour a city's suburbs before to find a decent cheap meal and I've traveled and lived all over the world.


AND it's burbs. There's fantastic food all over the downtown and surrounding areas as well though. Next time you're in the mood for something specific, post what you want I'm sure someone can direct you there.

I agree on the pizza though, although I do like Planks Parsons on occasion and Rubino's if I make it out Bexley way.

p.s. While I don't call it Chicago Style, Fabian's is pretty good too, and they have a great deal for half off night.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:37 am 
Godzilla
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 7907
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Jawbreaker wrote:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d01984.pdf

Quote:
A number of transit options are available to communities to help address
growing traffic congestion. One such option is Bus Rapid Transit. Bus
Rapid Transit is an emerging approach to using buses as an improved highspeed
transit system. By employing innovative technologies such as signal
prioritization, better stations or shelters, fewer stops, and faster service on
more attractive vehicles, Bus Rapid Transit shows promise in meeting a
variety of transit needs. In addition, in many communities Bus Rapid
Transit systems can have lower capital costs than Light Rail systems yet
can often provide similar performance. Further, Bus Rapid Transit’s
flexibility may be a potentially valuable feature for many communities with
sprawling patterns of development, where public transportation needs can
be more complex and difficult to address than focusing on a single central
business district.

I love the poetic way the line breaks happened in that quote. Looks like a Del song or something. DelTraffic: Civil Engineer 3030.

As for biking when I had no car my bike was good 24/7/365. Come on: Columbus is flat, and sometimes biking through snow is actually faster (and warmer in my old car) than driving through it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:45 am 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
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PinheadFestival wrote:
... I just see the bus in Columbus as somewhat stigmatized and believe part of that is inherent fear in learning schedules, transfers, etc. You don't seem to have that with a rail system, at least this is what other cities have seen.


Wouldn't it just be cheaper and easier to destigmatize the bus system? I can't see any difference between how the bus system functions and how a streetcar system does, so it all comes down to what sexier, doesn't it? (Sorry, I'm not buying the "Streetcar Fairy waves her magic wand and development just happens" argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:57 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:32 pm
Posts: 994
Location: burbleville
sqr wrote:
mr. lady wrote:
way too many chains in town, but there is great food all over columbus and it's 'burbs if you take the time to look. there have been 8 page threads on this board about the best whatever.

seriously, you're not looking hard enough.


Well, I live near Hudson and 4th and I no longer own a vehicle or have money to take cabs. I've never had to scour a city's suburbs before to find a decent cheap meal and I've traveled and lived all over the world.



if the ability to beat feet to numerous inexpensive quality eateries is a must for you, you should have made a more researched decision regarding where you live.

listen to cookie, tim, and unp, bikes and buses are good.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:28 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff
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here is my question pinhead and it's legit, from a lazy researcher --

are there any studies that show street cars are a bad idea out there?

and are all the positive ones from cities that maybe had govt officials wanting the studies to come out positive in some way?

just thinking the pot of studies out there might be slanted in some way maybe.. i dunno.. just throwing it out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:36 pm 
Godzilla
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:14 pm
Posts: 4116
Location: Columbus, Ohio
I don't think the buses are 'stigmatized' because people are scared to learn schedules and get transfers.
I think they are stigmatized because there can be some downright scary folks that take the buses and/or hang around bus stops. Especially the #2. I got harassed on a fairly regular basis last summer when I waited for the #2 or #4 to pick me up outside the statehouse.
The bus costs $2.50. If the streetcars cost less than that, I'm pretty sure there will be some unsavory characters who will also ride them.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:55 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
robertduffy wrote:
here is my question pinhead and it's legit, from a lazy researcher --

are there any studies that show street cars are a bad idea out there?

and are all the positive ones from cities that maybe had govt officials wanting the studies to come out positive in some way?

just thinking the pot of studies out there might be slanted in some way maybe.. i dunno.. just throwing it out there.


Honestly Duff, the only ones I've seen that showed negative streetcar data were pretty much negative public ALL transportation coming out of conservative think tanks.

I ain't gonna lie though, I haven't done much looking for those studies either, so there may be more than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:32 am 
Godzilla
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Street Cars can be good, or they can be bad. It all depends how they are designed, mapped, out and utilized.

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but the proposal for C-Bus, will it keep the road way car and pedestrian friendly?

If not, that's what killed Main Street in Memphis TN for awhile. The only way to get up and down Main was the street car. Businesses started to move away and it really deterred people from being on Main St.

Streetcars tend to work better when they aid transportation and not dominate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:00 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
annie oakley wrote:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but the proposal for C-Bus, will it keep the road way car and pedestrian friendly?


It's been stated "yes", but the engineering is just starting now.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:05 am 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
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PinheadFestival wrote:
It's been stated "yes", but the engineering is just starting now.


Is cutting a couple of lanes out of High Street really "car friendly?" Especially downtown where there are already designated bus lanes?

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:06 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Cookie wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
It's been stated "yes", but the engineering is just starting now.


Is cutting a couple of lanes out of High Street really "car friendly?" Especially downtown where there are already designated bus lanes?


They're not cutting down the lanes on High Street, the streetcar shares lanes with traffic.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:10 am 
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PinheadFestival wrote:
They're not cutting down the lanes on High Street, the streetcar shares lanes with traffic.


I'll admit that I don't know much about streetcars, but isn't that unusual?

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:14 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Cookie wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
They're not cutting down the lanes on High Street, the streetcar shares lanes with traffic.


I'll admit that I don't know much about streetcars, but isn't that unusual?


Nope, the modern version (non trolley) almost always shares the roadway with cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:15 am 
Godzilla
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Is there any visual proposals on how it will work, logistics? I would like to see what it looks like in relation to how it will fit on the street.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:17 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
annie oakley wrote:
Is there any visual proposals on how it will work, logistics? I would like to see what it looks like in relation to how it will fit on the street.


That's what the engineers are doing now, determining if it will run curb lane, middle of street, etc.


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