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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:50 pm 
Godzilla
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I think it'll be great to take a streetcar downtown to check out the parking lots, empty/boarded store fronts, and unsold New York Style Apartment Loft Condos™


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:55 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
I think it'll be great to take a streetcar downtown to check out the parking lots, empty/boarded store fronts, and unsold New York Style Apartment Loft Condos™


Well, that's kind of the point. Since pretty much all of the studies and the reality of the other cities who have done starter lines have shown tremendous increase in economic development along the line, the 36 underdeveloped acres along this line would be targeted for retail, office, residential, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:24 pm 
Godzilla
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First, because things corrolate, doesn't mean that a causality exists. From the places you've named--Charlotte, Dallas, Edmonton, Houston, San Francisco, San Jose, and to a lesser extent, Seattle, Tacoma, and Portland, have all been beneficiaries of much larger trends in economic growth. To suggest that streetcars contributed to economic growth in these areas is almost like taking credit for the Sun rising.

Columbus+OH are in the exact opposite position as these places, with fleeing population and fleeing economic activity. Streetcars are a thoroughly ridiculous inversion of priorities. (As an anecdote, I've recently met at least 8-10 people with young children/expecting and they are all planning to, or in the process of, moving out of Columbus to someplace with better schools.)

...and that's not even getting into the conceit that "economic growth" stems from some sort of bureaucratic planning and handouts. (Tax abatements, handouts to political cronies who are going to develop "Historic Neighborhoods", etc...)

Here's a couple crazy ideas: How about removing the ridiculous limitations, taxes (oops sorry, "fees") and regulations on Cab providers? How about providing/fostering a pro-business environment? (see Ohio's tax system).

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:36 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
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Quote:
Columbus+OH are in the exact opposite position as these places, with fleeing population and fleeing economic activity.



um...


Quote:
If it were not for the growth of central Ohio's seven counties, the state would have had a net loss of more than 16,000 residents in 2007.

Ohio led the nation with seven of the 34 counties that had the biggest population declines, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates released today. Cuyahoga County lost 13,304 residents, the third-biggest population decline in the country.

In contrast, Franklin County grew by 9,040 residents, or 0.8 percent of its population, and the six surrounding counties grew by 10,428 residents.


http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_ ... ml?sid=101


the GDP in Columbus also grew last year by almost 3%.


Additionally, those cities are the ones claiming the results are tied to the streetcar, and the increases in property values along the line are substantially of a substantially higher percentage than the cities as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:57 pm 
Godzilla
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Location: Columbus, Ohio
groundrules wrote:
corggirl wrote:
It does seem to cover a really small area (that you can totally walk anyway), and it seems to be more cutesy than practical.

If they do use the streetcars in brochures and marketing, it seems like it would just be false advertising.
"You mean this is all the farther this thing goes??"


Hey, when you're in Seattle, ride yourself that world famous Monorail. its every bit of that ^^.


You know, I was reading a travel book about Seattle and I got to the word 'monorail' and I was like, "Awww yeah, Seattle has a monorail!!!"
Then I read a little further and realized it's like 1.5 miles. I was incredibly disappointed.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:05 pm 
Mothra
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bnb614 wrote:
As someone who likes going to see lots of live music shows, but thinks ticket prices and associated fees are getting out of control, I wasn't really psyched to see that part of the Mayor's funding plan for the Columbus streetcars will be a 4% fee on all sporting, music, arts, and theatre tickets (over $10) sold in the "benefit zone." This would presumably include the LC, Nationwide, the new baseball park, etc.

Nothing has been set in stone yet, and the Mayor was quick to say that there will be exemptions for these fees. I don't want to pay more to go to events either, but if I'm going to shell out $10 for a ticket, an extra 40 cents isn't going to break me, especially if it means that my ticket will also act as a round-trip Streetcar ticket that night.

bnb614 wrote:
Columbus has a million problems that should be much higher priority

Sometimes the best way to address problems is through an indirect route. It's easy to say that we should be dumping this cash on the heads of our police officers or school teachers, but shoveling money at a problem doesn't always help make it go away.

corggirl wrote:
It does seem to cover a really small area (that you can totally walk anyway), and it seems to be more cutesy than practical.

2.8 miles is a pretty long walk for most people.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:28 pm 
Godzilla
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Location: Columbus, Ohio
How much is a ride on the streetcar going to cost?
I could see downtown Conventioneers maybe riding up to the Short North, but would it cost less, the same, or more than a cab?


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:33 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
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corggirl wrote:
How much is a ride on the streetcar going to cost?
I could see downtown Conventioneers maybe riding up to the Short North, but would it cost less, the same, or more than a cab?



I believe they were knocking around 1.00-1.50. And yeah, the Wexner, the Short North, etc. for conventioners I think is a big deal. The study showed an increase of 90,000 visitors per year, which I find realistic (it's only a 3% increase in convention business).


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:47 pm 
Godzilla
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Walker wrote:
shoveling money at a problem doesn't always help make it go away


I'm assuming that includes transportation?

Quote:
In contrast, Franklin County grew by 9,040 residents, or 0.8 percent of its population, and the six surrounding counties grew by 10,428 residents.

http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_ ... ml?sid=101


Quote:
the GDP in Columbus also grew last year by almost 3%.


I'm curious how "Columbus" is defined. From that Dispatch graphic, note the difference between Delaware and Franklin counties. Delaware isn't Columbus. I think I can safely say that "urban" rail transport will have little economic effect in Delaware.

I'd also be interested to see population and GDP trends over something like the last 20 years.

Quote:
Additionally, those cities are the ones claiming the results are tied to the streetcar, and the increases in property values along the line are substantially of a substantially higher percentage than the cities as a whole.


Given regional differences and numerous variables, I find a blanket statement about ROI or results incredibly suspicious. I don't doubt it would increase property values along High St--which is why I'm sure all the rich people who own buildings on High St. undoubtedly support it. (and I'm sure their kids go to private schools) One would think that higher property values would place additional constraints on the "creative" (re)use of the buildings and property--i.e. expect more $500 pants stores.


Last edited by Jawbreaker on Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:48 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
expect more $500 pants stores.


if it takes the place of a parking lot, bravo.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:18 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:32 pm
Posts: 994
Location: burbleville
Jawbreaker wrote:
Columbus+OH are in the exact opposite position as these places, with fleeing population and fleeing economic activity.


that's not columbus, that's cleveland. columbus may not be developing in a way that you find desirable(i don't like a lot of it either), but it is developing.

Jawbreaker wrote:
As an anecdote, I've recently met at least 8-10 people with young children/expecting and they are all planning to, or in the process of, moving out of Columbus to someplace with better schools.


that's kinda why suburbs exist. since the end of world war ii people have been leaving cities/urban areas to raise their families. good or bad, they want more space and less traffic.

as far as increases go, i think that ticketmaster screws you so hard that the addition there is fairly negligible. the parking meter thing will suck. especially if they would/are considering extending the time on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:26 am 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
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PinheadFestival wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
expect more $500 pants stores.


if it takes the place of a parking lot, bravo.


I'd really prefer the parking lot.

Unless hitting people who buy $500 pants in the face with a shovel on their way out is an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:04 am 
Godzilla
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Walker wrote:
2.8 miles is a pretty long walk for most people.



BS. I walk up hill 10 miles to and from work every day I work.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:19 am 
Godzilla
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Walker wrote:
2.8 miles is a pretty long walk for most people.

ironic statement considering your username.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:25 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
unpossibles wrote:
Walker wrote:
2.8 miles is a pretty long walk for most people.

ironic statement considering your username.


that's his real first name ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:50 pm 
Mothra
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If you build it, I will ride.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:48 pm 
Godzilla
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if they build it, i will laugh and laugh and laugh . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:58 pm 
Godzilla
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I guess I sort of like the idea but what I would really like to see are better bike paths or roads that would give someone that lives in say Victorian village the ability to ride his bike like his favorite gym in Mill Run without fearing for his life. That and a sidewalk on 3rd so someone that lived in, oh I don't know, Victorian Village could walk to say, Grandview.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:04 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
BastardSuperstar wrote:
if they build it, i will laugh and laugh and laugh . . .


Yeah, because something that's worked in Tacoma, Portland, Tampa, and Kenosha couldn't possibly work here...


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:12 pm 
King Ghidorah
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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:29 pm 
Godzilla
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PinheadFestival wrote:
BastardSuperstar wrote:
if they build it, i will laugh and laugh and laugh . . .


Yeah, because something that's worked in Tacoma, Portland, Tampa, and Kenosha couldn't possibly work here...



man, i can't wait til we become the next kenosha . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:40 pm 
Jet Jaguar

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I've really never heard any discussion sound more like Marge vs. the Monorail. Maybe we'll be the next North Haverbrook!

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:53 pm 
Jet Jaguar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:38 pm
Posts: 166
Man, I lived in Wisconsin for about twenty five years, and trust me, the last thing anyone anywhere wants to do is be anything like Kenosha. Jesus Christ that's scary.


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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:31 pm 
Mechagodzilla
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sqr wrote:
Man, I lived in Wisconsin for about twenty five years, and trust me, the last thing anyone anywhere wants to do is be anything like Kenosha. Jesus Christ that's scary.


Does Kenosha stink like paper mills? That's a bracing Wisconsin smell that I grew to love (i.e., hate) when I lived there. Maybe Columbus could be the next Menasha, Wisconsin. They may not have streetcars, but they reek of paper making. Tourists love that.

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 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:56 pm 
Mothra
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coydog wrote:
I guess I sort of like the idea but what I would really like to see are better bike paths or roads that would give someone that lives in say Victorian village the ability to ride his bike like his favorite gym in Mill Run without fearing for his life. That and a sidewalk on 3rd so someone that lived in, oh I don't know, Victorian Village could walk to say, Grandview.

Improved bikeways are in the works!

http://www.altaplanning.com/columbus/

Hooray for all forms of transit!

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