blog | facebook | twitter
C'MON C'MON THE CLUB IS OPEN
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:09 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 239 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:53 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
underspecialization wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
well, wouldn't the opposing side be the ones responsible to bring the support for their argument...not me?

if you want to live your life with one eye closed, i guess that's your choice.
it does, however, make you look like an ass.


I've looked for it, I haven't found it. I've read everything I've come across on the streetcars in other cities and the impact they've had. The only "negative" things I've read has been limited to blogs which basically say "bah, I don't believe the development was because of the streetcar" which is hardly source worthy.

Regardless, I've taken the time to read the feasibility studies, read the report cards, read the property value reports, watch the City Council financing meeting...

And the people arguing with me haven't even taken the time to read the information linked within this very thread (by me)...

So who looks like an ass?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:55 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
BastardSuperstar wrote:
well, you're more than welcome to address ANY of the "in the trenches" points made by myself above, on what benefits the city's pet projects really mean to the high-street-business-owner.

since the time that i first signed my lease, only THREE businesses on my old block survived, and two of them were the plasma center and the family dollar. (cheers to byzantium!) and the only one that made it past when i closed, was little brothers, and they were shut down less than a year later by the EXACT same rent games that're gonna be a part of this "development" that comes with your train . . .


I agree that there has to be protections put in place for the current business owners, it's why I'm happy to see people like Liz Lessner involved in this. Protections against both rent hikes immediately and during the construction phase. I also know several business owners along that strip that are behind this project because they believe it will increase their business.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:07 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:14 pm
Posts: 4116
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:
Why can’t we just add more buses?
There are two key reasons why adding more buses will not work as well as the streetcar for
circulation: 1-The number of buses required to equal the capacity of one streetcar makes buses
more expensive to operate and maintain, 2 – Examples show that streetcars attract new riders,
people who otherwise would not ride a bus, because of the convenience, comfort, attractiveness
and reliability of the streetcar – thus, the streetcar increases the number of people who will use
transit.


How is the streetcar more convenient than a bus? For this proposed stretch, you can also ride a bus.

I'll give you comfort and attractiveness. A streetcar probably looks cooler than the bus.

I can't say anything about reliability, having not ridden a streetcar or read any studies.

But, I go back to my original statement. Yeah, more people will ride the streetcar at first, but once the novelty wears off, will they continue to ride it? And, again, what happens when the same unsavory people who currently ride the buses start riding the streetcar? There are a lot of people who won't put up with certain behaviors, no matter how damn cool the transportation looks.

The rich white conventioneers who seem to be the target demographic for this streetcar are not going to be happy sharing their ride with a woman pushing a teddy bear in a stroller while shrieking to herself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:28 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:10 pm
Posts: 6351
Pick one city (you can choose) and demonstrate actual outcomes, (not feasibility studies, which are not only projections, but notoriously politically motivated) with a preponderance of evidence that links the outcomes with the development of light rail.

...and politicians "saying so" isn't proof.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:30 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:10 pm
Posts: 6351
tuxspeedo wrote:
have you ever had any fun for even a day in your life?



Social climbing is a full time job.
:oops: :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:19 am 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Jawbreaker wrote:
Pick one city (you can choose) and demonstrate actual outcomes, (not feasibility studies, which are not only projections, but notoriously politically motivated) with a preponderance of evidence that links the outcomes with the development of light rail.

...and politicians "saying so" isn't proof.


Go back a few pages, there's several 2 year report cards including Portland.

EDIT: and politicians can't magically change property values and sales. They're public record.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:29 am 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:10 pm
Posts: 6351
PinheadFestival wrote:
Jawbreaker wrote:
Pick one city (you can choose) and demonstrate actual outcomes, (not feasibility studies, which are not only projections, but notoriously politically motivated) with a preponderance of evidence that links the outcomes with the development of light rail.

...and politicians "saying so" isn't proof.


Go back a few pages, there's several 2 year report cards including Portland.

EDIT: and politicians can't magically change property values and sales. They're public record.


Then it should be easy for you to assemble them into a convincing argument.

As far as "report cards" go are these government, or third-party generated documents? Because I don't think I've ever heard any politician/Gov. official come out and say "yeah, we totally fucked that up"

So when you construct an argument (preferably using 3rd party, or at least verifiably objective, data) I'll change my mind.

_________________
"It is logically impossible to have a game in which both the actions of the players and the final score can be subject to rules of fairness."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:24 pm 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:05 am
Posts: 7620
Location: The Cookie Capital of the World
PinheadFestival wrote:
So who looks like an ass?


You really don't know, do you?

_________________
It was fifteen years ago, but I remember it like it was ten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:29 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Cookie wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
So who looks like an ass?


You really don't know, do you?


No offense, but "looking like an ass" in the minds of people who don't take the time to educate themselves in the slightest on an issue before they take a position on it doesn't bother me. The information is readily available, I hope you take the time to read it...if not, I won't lose any sleep over it at this point.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:03 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:06 pm
Posts: 3528
Location: South
Wow, what a bunch of negative Nancys!

Are the proposed Columbus Streetcars going to cost anything to ride?

Also, the argument that this will hurt independent business is kind of offbase, though I do see your point.

BUT

Say the streetcar passes, is built and is widely popular, bringing more business to the businesses on its route. With the increase in revenue, businesses can sustain increasing property value. If it is a good business.

Sometimes they just don't work out, and it really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are independently owned or chains.
I have watched many chain stores tank after a couple of years.

Whenever you start a business, it is prudent to really hack out the rent details, make sure renewal options are SOLID and protect you from outrageous hikes.

Cincinnati City Council votes Mondays on our Streetcar proposal, I am STOKED. I hope it passes!

_________________
Pickles are destroying my life.

confuseddildo.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:06 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
PinheadFestival wrote:
I agree that there has to be protections put in place for the current business owners, it's why I'm happy to see people like Liz Lessner involved in this. Protections against both rent hikes immediately and during the construction phase. I also know several business owners along that strip that are behind this project because they believe it will increase their business.


Awesome, I was hoping we could find another way for more government regulation. Rent control would be awesome. Maybe the gov't could just eminent domain all of High Street. Would that help them accomplish their goals?

So not only do I have to help pay for a streetcar system that makes no sense, but now the gov't will decide which businesses should get spots in the "benefit zone."

How much more regulation will be needed before the "wave of development" actually happens?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:19 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
bnb614 wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
I agree that there has to be protections put in place for the current business owners, it's why I'm happy to see people like Liz Lessner involved in this. Protections against both rent hikes immediately and during the construction phase. I also know several business owners along that strip that are behind this project because they believe it will increase their business.


Awesome, I was hoping we could find another way for more government regulation. Rent control would be awesome. Maybe the gov't could just eminent domain all of High Street. Would that help them accomplish their goals?

So not only do I have to help pay for a streetcar system that makes no sense, but now the gov't will decide which businesses should get spots in the "benefit zone."

How much more regulation will be needed before the "wave of development" actually happens?


And with that it becomes clear that you just want to argue, but don't actually have a point. Yes, I think there should be protections in place for the small businesses along High that will suffer from the construction, since the streetcar is designed to benefit them and I'd like them to actually be there when it opens.

Although it occurs to me, that since you find Cato to be such a great resource, you don't support any public works or transportation.

I'd suggest you protest by not going outside until 2012 when it is all over.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:06 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
PinheadFestival wrote:
And with that it becomes clear that you just want to argue, but don't actually have a point.


And with that it becomes clear that you are an elitist who is condescending to anyone who isn't as "enlightened" as you to the glory that is a streetcar plan.

My point is that I don't want to see the City do the equivalent of throwing hundreds of millions of dollars out the window. After the initial investment of $100+ million dollars, they will use that as justification for anything else they need to do to make it survive and expand. I mean "there is no way we can abandon this now after we have already invested all that money." I can hear that excuse now. I don't want to see the City telling landlords what rent they can charge tenants, and any other government intrusion they try, with the streetcar plan as their justification.

And I don't believe you that you aren't involved in the streetcar plan somehow. You have the talking points down pat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:23 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
bnb614 wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
And with that it becomes clear that you just want to argue, but don't actually have a point.


And with that it becomes clear that you are an elitist who is condescending to anyone who isn't as "enlightened" as you to the glory that is a streetcar plan.

My point is that I don't want to see the City do the equivalent of throwing hundreds of millions of dollars out the window. After the initial investment of $100+ million dollars, they will use that as justification for anything else they need to do to make it survive and expand. I mean "there is no way we can abandon this now after we have already invested all that money." I can hear that excuse now. I don't want to see the City telling landlords what rent they can charge tenants, and any other government intrusion they try, with the streetcar plan as their justification.

And I don't believe you that you aren't involved in the streetcar plan somehow. You have the talking points down pat.


So...you have the Kreskin argument.

got it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:30 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
Yes, same as you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:33 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
bnb614 wrote:
Yes, same as you.


Um...no. I have pointed out over 20 cities who have done a feasibility report that came out much like ours. Those 20 cities have seen the exact same kind of success that those reports predicted and more. I have provided that documentation for you to read, and there's much more available.

That's called making a supported argument.


You're argument is "bah, I don't believe it's gonna work", and these are all the things I predict will happen based on absolutely no evidence, in fact in direct defiance of the results of same or similar projects, simply because I believe it to be true.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:54 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
PinheadFestival wrote:
bnb614 wrote:
Yes, same as you.


Um...no. I have pointed out over 20 cities who have done a feasibility report that came out much like ours. Those 20 cities have seen the exact same kind of success that those reports predicted and more. I have provided that documentation for you to read, and there's much more available.

That's called making a supported argument.


You're argument is "bah, I don't believe it's gonna work", and these are all the things I predict will happen based on absolutely no evidence, in fact in direct defiance of the results of same or similar projects, simply because I believe it to be true.



Again, as has been pointed out numerous times, the cities have a VESTED interest in making sure the studies says it was successful. They don't discuss tax abatements, etc. They make it look like the streetcars are successful. They aren't going to say "oops, we fucked up and wasted hundreds of millions of dollars." Its known as enlightened self interest. Not wanting to get voted out of office.

Plus Denver has a walking mall area the train runs to. Portland has a walking mall area the train runs to. Seattle has a monorail that runs near Pikes Market and to the space needle. Columbus' will block traffic running down a street of office buildings and destination areas such as Arena District and Short North that you don't need a train to get to, and which a bus CURRENTLY runs the same route!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:09 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
bnb614 wrote:
Again, as has been pointed out numerous times, the cities have a VESTED interest in making sure the studies says it was successful. They don't discuss tax abatements, etc. They make it look like the streetcars are successful. They aren't going to say "oops, we fucked up and wasted hundreds of millions of dollars." Its known as enlightened self interest. Not wanting to get voted out of office.

Plus Denver has a walking mall area the train runs to. Portland has a walking mall area the train runs to. Seattle has a monorail that runs near Pikes Market and to the space needle. Columbus' will block traffic running down a street of office buildings and destination areas such as Arena District and Short North that you don't need a train to get to, and which a bus CURRENTLY runs the same route!


So, in other words...you don't believe any of the studies. You don't believe auditor websites that show property values through purchase prices. You don't believe buildings standing where they didn't used to. It's the government trying to screw you!

And just so I'm clear, you mean the Portland Transit mall, right?

As far as blocking traffic, no...it doesn't. Again, it shares the roadway and more effectively than buses.

Most importantly, AGAIN, buses don't drive development. Buses don't increase tourism. Buses don't even approach breaking even in their own cost, let alone bringing anything else to the city.

So, it's Kreskin. I don't believe your studies, because they're from "the man" who will lie...but I don't have any of my own studies...I just have wild guesses, but mine are accurate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:25 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
Property values increase all the time, genius. Whenever a property sells for more than the auditor currently values it, they increase and match the sales price. If it doesn't sell the auditor still increases it when the reappraise, in good markets (or basically the last 8 years or so).

You and Mayor McSpendAlot will convince people soon enough.

How did the Skybus investments turn out? I am sure the mayor just knew Skybus would be successful.

Talking to you =

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:30 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
Columbus in 2030

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:32 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
bnb614 wrote:
Property values increase all the time, genius. Whenever a property sells for more than the auditor currently values it, they increase and match the sales price. If it doesn't sell the auditor still increases it when the reappraise, in good markets (or basically the last 8 years or so).

You and Mayor McSpendAlot will convince people soon enough.

How did the Skybus investments turn out? I am sure the mayor just knew Skybus would be successful.

Talking to you =

Image


HUH??? No, that's not really what the auditor does...nor is that really how property values increase. Regardless, the national average on property value rising is about equal to inflation, or 5%. Property values along the streetcar lines have jumped 10 times that. They've also significantly outperformed property in the same city off the line.

How did the Skybus investments turn out? Judging from the press Columbus received over the last year, I'd say quite well actually. Any investment in an airline is risky, as you can see from the fact that Skybus was one of 3 airlines to go under in the last couple days, when fuel prices skyrocket. I will say, it provided Columbus with a ton of recognition and probably a substantial increase in tourism.


just like the streetcar is forecast to do, in fact 90,000 new visitors per year.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:40 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:26 pm
Posts: 11658
Location: Park Slope
i'd say that this debate was good for the first few pages but we're kinda going in circles at this point, right?

let's bring some new stuff to the table

_________________
C'MON C'MON THE CLUB IS OPEN


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:11 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:10 pm
Posts: 6351
Compare/contrast the projected/forecasted development costs of the Portland system with the actual costs.



----------
also

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/us/07highway.html

Quote:
Further, transportation and engineering experts said, lawmakers have financed a boom in rail construction that, while politically popular, has resulted in expensive transit systems that are not used by a vast majority of American commuters.

Representative James L. Oberstar, Democrat of Minnesota and the chairman of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, sent out a news release last month boasting about Minnesota's share of a recent transportation and housing appropriations bill.

Of the $12 million secured for the state, $10 million is slated for a new 40-mile commuter rail line to Minneapolis, called the Northstar....

Some transportation experts also said that though light rail and other public transportation projects made sense in cities, investing in them in sprawling suburban regions might not, even if the systems were supported, in theory, by the public.


At least all the bridges were maintained first.


Last edited by Jawbreaker on Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:15 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:12 pm
Posts: 3415
Location: not dead or in jail
bnb614 wrote:
And I don't believe you that you aren't involved in the streetcar plan somehow. You have the talking points down pat.


i'm pretty sure this dude is coremodels on columbus underground-if you wanna go through all those posts i imagine you could figure out what he does for a living


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:19 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
thisoneholymedium wrote:
bnb614 wrote:
And I don't believe you that you aren't involved in the streetcar plan somehow. You have the talking points down pat.


i'm pretty sure this dude is coremodels on columbus underground-if you wanna go through all those posts i imagine you could figure out what he does for a living


or just ask :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 239 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group






Buy a Premium BlogAd