blog | facebook | twitter
C'MON C'MON THE CLUB IS OPEN
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 239 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:55 pm 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:05 am
Posts: 7620
Location: The Cookie Capital of the World
tuxspeedo wrote:
oh, that was development? I thought it was a car stuck behind it, in it's wake.


For the purposes of this discussion, "cars" will now be referred to as "development."

_________________
It was fifteen years ago, but I remember it like it was ten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:59 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
PinheadFestival wrote:
And exactly how much money do you think buses cost and how much do you think the return is???


I have no idea, but my guess is it costs a hell of a lot less than $100,000,000, and you have no idea what the return on the streetcars would be either. You are just assuming it will be positive because you like the idea of streetcars.

Why not give out the tax abatements and other incentives that will have to be given out (since the streetcars don't bring development) to get development downtown and if there is an increase in downtown street traffic then look into a better solution than the COTA #2 bus? If people won't ride the #2 bus who says they will ride a streetcar?

PinheadFestival wrote:
OSU ain't tossing 500 grand a year into the number 2 busline.


Shocker, Gordon Gee agreed with the Mayor? Whenever has he not? He is a "go along to get along" guy. Of course he loves the idea. $500 grand isn't jack shit to Ohio State. They give $500 grand and see the City sink a ton of money into a project that will benefit their students of which they hardly have to pay anything. What would they not like about it?

PinheadFestival wrote:
Unlike COTA, this streetcar is expected to approach a break even point annually...BEFORE you take into consideration the development along the lines, jobs it creates, increase in convention business, etc. etc. etc.


Will the streetcar make the sun brighter too?

Columbus isn't New York, and streetcars aren't going to flood people into the downtown. Especially with the punitive parking rates charged to fund the "breakeven" streetcars.

"Next stop, vacant City Center mall. Next stop, 50% vacant office building."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:04 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Quote:
I have no idea, but my guess is it costs a hell of a lot less than $100,000,000


Actually, COTA's annual budget as is= over 100 million dollars.

Quote:
You are just assuming it will be positive because you like the idea of streetcars.


No, I'm assuming that because the 20+ cities that did feasibility studies that predicted development...then built the streetcar and saw more than the studies predicted...that we'll see development, at least along the lines of our own feasibility study.

Quote:
If people won't ride the #2 bus who says they will ride a streetcar?


The results of every single city who's built one.

Quote:
They give $500 grand and see the City sink a ton of money into a project that will benefit their students of which they hardly have to pay anything. What would they not like about it?


that's 500 grand per year for a total of 12.5 million.

Quote:
Columbus isn't New York


Did you actually even bother to read the cities that have built these already? Apparently not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:07 pm 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:05 am
Posts: 7620
Location: The Cookie Capital of the World
PinheadFestival wrote:
Actually, COTA's annual budget as is= over 100 million dollars.


They could probably save a lot of money if they just had one bus that ran up and down two miles of High Street.

_________________
It was fifteen years ago, but I remember it like it was ten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:09 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:06 pm
Posts: 3528
Location: South
Quote:
1-The number of buses required to equal the capacity of one streetcar makes buses
more expensive to operate and maintain,

_________________
Pickles are destroying my life.

confuseddildo.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:12 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Cookie wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
Actually, COTA's annual budget as is= over 100 million dollars.


They could probably save a lot of money if they just had one bus that ran up and down two miles of High Street.


And the number 2 bus, again, won't represent an increase in jobs, convention business, and development. It won't be the first step in a light rail system for the entire metro area. It won't bring any of the benefits that these systems have proven time and time again to bring to a city.

No question, I get that you're fine with that...but thankfully, most people in a position to make the decision aren't. I'd like to stay ahead of the financial curve in Ohio with a vibrant economy, job market, and corporate commitment. The fact is that obtaining and retaining young professionals and corporate investment is affected by having a modern, effective public transit system.

buses aren't that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:15 pm 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:05 am
Posts: 7620
Location: The Cookie Capital of the World
PinheadFestival wrote:
No question, I get that you're fine with that...but thankfully, most people aren't.


Show me where I said or even implied that.

Quote:
I'd like to stay ahead of the financial curve in Ohio with a vibrant economy, job market, and corporate commitment. The fact is that obtaining and retaining young professionals and corporate investment is affected by having a modern, effective public transit system.

buses aren't that.


I get that you are convinced that streetcars will magically do all of the above. I am not.

_________________
It was fifteen years ago, but I remember it like it was ten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:18 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
Cookie wrote:
I get that you are convinced that streetcars will magically do all of the above. I am not.


Nothing magic about it...

20+ cities do a study saying if they build a streetcar X amount of development happens...

20+ cities build the streetcar, and more development than even predicted happens...

all of them.

I'd call that more than "magic".

We're the largest city in the United States who doesn't have light rail or modern transit. In fact, there's a helluva lot of cities smaller who do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:23 pm 
King Ghidorah
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:45 am
Posts: 876
Location: Space Egypt
PinheadFestival wrote:
The fact is that obtaining and retaining young professionals and corporate investment is affected by having a modern, effective public transit system.

buses aren't that.



just a thought, if you want to attract and then retain some young professionals in this city, maybe you should try speed dating first. it's cheaper.

I get what the possibilities are, though they're completely theoretical, no matter how many cities studies you've read. corporate investment might be a benefit......but I seriously don't think this has even a small part to play in preventing the brain drain. that's not only a little absurd, but painfully wishful thinking.

_________________
_____+______=______


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:30 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
tuxspeedo wrote:
that's not only a little absurd, but painfully wishful thinking.


I see, so despite the success each one of these starter lines has experienced, documented in doing exactly this...you think it's not true, so we should abandon the project.


got it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:33 pm 
King Ghidorah
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:45 am
Posts: 876
Location: Space Egypt
have you ever had any fun for even a day in your life?

_________________
_____+______=______


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:35 pm 
Friendship Farmer of the Year 2006
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:05 am
Posts: 7620
Location: The Cookie Capital of the World
Show me a study that proves that simply building a streetcar system in a city comparable to Columbus and doing absolutely nothing else accomplishes what you claim it will, and I'll read it, because it's a slow day at work.

I'd like to stipulate similar economic conditions, but I can't, seeing as how enormously fucked the economy is right now.

_________________
It was fifteen years ago, but I remember it like it was ten.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:09 pm 
Godzilla

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:37 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: The Gettin' Place
PinheadFestival wrote:
20+ cities do a study saying if they build a streetcar X amount of development happens...

20+ cities build the streetcar, and more development than even predicted happens...


You mean 20+ cities who have a vested interest in making sure their "study" produces positive results, so they don't have to explain a waste of taxpayer $$$.

20+ cities build streetcars, none or little development happens, so they use tax abatements and other incentives to get businesses downtown.

I still fail to see what proves that people that won't ride the #2 bus, will be willing to ride a streetcar which, basically looks and acts a lot like a bus.

PinheadFestival wrote:
The fact is that obtaining and retaining young professionals and corporate investment is affected by having a modern, effective public transit system.


It is? Cleveland has modern transit, are they retaining young people? Cincinnati has transit, are they retaining young people?
If I take your streetcar 2.8 miles, how should I plan on getting the rest of the 12 miles out to my company's suburban headquarters?

Wasn't it the mayor who said he wanted to see 10,000 condos in downtown Columbus to help entice people to move back downtown, where they can pay $400,000 for 1,300 square feet, 2BR condo. They will surely bring development. How did that work out? Why don't you ask Carlyle's Watch. They didn't sell many units so they did an auction, where they only accepted something like 4 bids. And now? Lease to own anyone?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:20 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:39 pm
Posts: 2448
Location: a town called your face
Quote:
Gordon Gee agreed with the Mayor? Whenever has he not? He is a "go along to get along" guy


He has a resume that says he's more than that. Just saying.

_________________
Gob: "My God. What is this feeling?"
Michael: "You know, the feeling that you're feeling is just what many of us call ... a 'feeling.'
Gob: "It's not like envy, or even hungry."
Michael: "Could it be love?"
Gob: "I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it's the opposite -- it's like my heart is getting hard."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:27 pm 
Donewaiting.com Staff
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:26 pm
Posts: 7648
Location: Columbus
Imagine this world:
"Hey everybody, let's hop the train down to city center and grab a slice of Sbarro!"

_________________
This place is like the fair, only it cost a dollar to get in and the rides are junked cars.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:48 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:06 pm
Posts: 6498
Location: high atop mount midoriyama
PinheadFestival wrote:
They've been studying the streetcar for years now, they've put a light rail system on the ballot already


and voters shot it the fuck down.

the public has spoken, can we just move on, now?

or is this just another politician's game of "fuck what the voters say, i want a legacy!!!"

_________________
“Every single person, ever, has masturbated . . . Napoleon masturbated, Gandhi, Joan Jett, Shakespeare … ”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:37 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
BastardSuperstar wrote:
PinheadFestival wrote:
They've been studying the streetcar for years now, they've put a light rail system on the ballot already


and voters shot it the fuck down.

the public has spoken, can we just move on, now?

or is this just another politician's game of "fuck what the voters say, i want a legacy!!!"


The voters shot down a light rail system that was all at once, encompassing the entire metro area...not the streetcar, and this doesn't go on a ballot and it isn't paid for with tax dollars.

As to the rest of the complaints about the studies, they're already in the thread. If you'd like to discount them off hand, go for it...I'd ask that you provide studies showing that your Kreskin like ability to know that it won't work is more accurate...but you won't find them.

So, forgive me...I'll take the 20+ cities that have done this successfully, the huge pile of documentation to accompany each as better evidence than "I don't buy it" from "some guy" on a message board.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:42 pm 
King Ghidorah
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:45 am
Posts: 876
Location: Space Egypt
sorry to break the news to ya, bro.....

you, like everyone else here, are just some fucking guy on a message board.

keep enlightening us with yourself, though, please.

_________________
_____+______=______


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:15 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:06 pm
Posts: 6498
Location: high atop mount midoriyama
PinheadFestival wrote:


The voters shot down a light rail system that was all at once, encompassing the entire metro area...not the streetcar, and this doesn't go on a ballot and it isn't paid for with tax dollars.


so, lemme get this straight . . . the voters said "no" (resoundingly) to a lightrail that would actually benefit the entire city, but we're all supposed to jump on board for a plan that benefits very, very few of us (well, the "few" of us that don't own the properties* on the proposed lanes) and that we have no say in?

man, this sounds better and better all the time!!!


tellyawhat . . . why don't we make the ol' santa maria the new streetcar, and it can run from from one "let's put columbus on the map" failure to another. i'm thinking having it start at ameriflora, and end at the son of heaven exhibit. then we can just have one little area that we can flush ALL of columbus' money down.






* and don't bleedin' kid yourself, the ONLY businesses that stand to REALLY see some profit from a plan like this is the business of land-owning and developing. the "businesses" that are already on the strip: the stores, coffee houses and mom&pop shoppes are NOT going to see this fabled increase in revenue. in fact, most likely, they'll be replaced for "more profitable" (read: chainstores and/or more f*cking condos) business ventures while their rents increase and their day-today business goes down due to construction and congestion. i owned a retail store right in the heart of this proposed streetcar line for over 3 years (and managed high street stores for the 15 years before that) and i can tell you, the independent business owners in the area aren't looking for a streetcar to save them, in the same way that we weren't looking for the arches to erase our financial woes, either. when they first started sinking millions into the arches, my fellow shopkeeps and i were far more worried about police patrols and general upkeep of the neighborhood than we were about the "landmarks" they were installing. and ALL of our businesses suffered during the construction period, causing many of the shops to close their doors. was the city there to help these businesses? nope, and in many cases, the landlords were excited about the shops closing, because they knew they could use the arches to charge more in rent to the incoming shops. then years later, as they were now sinking more millions into making the arches actually fucking work, we were still concerned far more about sidewalks that were literally falling apart than some damn fancy lights to illuminate the shitty sidewalks. seriously, there are stretches of sidewalk so degraded between buttles and 4th that i have, on many occasion, seen the wheelchair or rascal bound have to roll out into the busy traffic of high st. during the day because their chairs couldn't take the terrain of the sidewalk. that's not only dangerous, but it's heartbreaking as well. but, yaknow, the sidewalks are only there for the people that actually live, work, and pay taxes in the area. this streetcar, that'll be for the tourists, politicians, developers and landlords. and god KNOWS they have the common man's interest at heart!

_________________
“Every single person, ever, has masturbated . . . Napoleon masturbated, Gandhi, Joan Jett, Shakespeare … ”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:47 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:18 am
Posts: 4136
Location: under the special eyes
BastardSuperstar wrote:
tellyawhat . . . why don't we make the ol' santa maria the new streetcar, and it can run from from one "let's put columbus on the map" failure to another. i'm thinking having it start at ameriflora, and end at the son of heaven exhibit. then we can just have one little area that we can flush ALL of columbus' money down.

I love this idea!
I remember years and years ago talking to Stu Sinn about tearing up high street, planting grass in its place, and then installing a slow-moving tram/escalator system along the olentangy so everyone could see the destruction of our natural environment.

Quote:
* and don't bleedin' kid yourself, the ONLY businesses that stand to REALLY see some profit from a plan like this is the business of land-owning and developing. the "businesses" that are already on the strip: the stores, coffee houses and mom&pop shoppes are NOT going to see this fabled increase in revenue. in fact, most likely, they'll be replaced for "more profitable" (read: chainstores and/or more f*cking condos) business ventures while their rents increase and their day-today business goes down due to construction and congestion. i owned a retail store right in the heart of this proposed streetcar line for over 3 years (and managed high street stores for the 15 years before that) and i can tell you, the independent business owners in the area aren't looking for a streetcar to save them, in the same way that we weren't looking for the arches to erase our financial woes, either. when they first started sinking millions into the arches, my fellow shopkeeps and i were far more worried about police patrols and general upkeep of the neighborhood than we were about the "landmarks" they were installing. and ALL of our businesses suffered during the construction period, causing many of the shops to close their doors. was the city there to help these businesses? nope, and in many cases, the landlords were excited about the shops closing, because they knew they could use the arches to charge more in rent to the incoming shops. then years later, as they were now sinking more millions into making the arches actually fucking work, we were still concerned far more about sidewalks that were literally falling apart than some damn fancy lights to illuminate the shitty sidewalks. seriously, there are stretches of sidewalk so degraded between buttles and 4th that i have, on many occasion, seen the wheelchair or rascal bound have to roll out into the busy traffic of high st. during the day because their chairs couldn't take the terrain of the sidewalk. that's not only dangerous, but it's heartbreaking as well. but, yaknow, the sidewalks are only there for the people that actually live, work, and pay taxes in the area. this streetcar, that'll be for the tourists, politicians, developers and landlords. and god KNOWS they have the common man's interest at heart!

AMEN, brother.

I never understood why they reworked the sidewalks up in wash beach TWICE in many cases (and still didn't get the ramp parts right. They still get mud and leaves piled up right where the ramp meets the street. Who would/could wheel or even walk thru that?) and still have never touched short north sidewalks.

_________________
This shit show was free.
~Anthony Allman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:08 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
tuxspeedo wrote:
sorry to break the news to ya, bro.....

you, like everyone else here, are just some fucking guy on a message board.

keep enlightening us with yourself, though, please.



Actually, I'm just some fucking guy on a message board with links to about 12 different government and private studies backing up what I say.

You're just some fucking guy on a message board with an unfounded opinion and a couple wise cracks.


bro.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:35 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:06 pm
Posts: 6498
Location: high atop mount midoriyama
PinheadFestival wrote:


Actually, I'm just some fucking guy on a message board with links to about 12 different government and private studies backing up what I say.



you're also "just some fucking guy" who admittedly has no idea what evidence/proof/facts/studies the other side has to offer. you don't have all the facts, you have one side (the propaganda side) of the argument.

it's easy to be a cheerleader if you only know one side of the story. especially if it's the story being fed to you by those it'll really benefit.


sometimes in this thread, you come off like you think you're headly larmarr in columbus' own li'l saga of rock ridge. but sadly, i think you're more like slim pickens. enforcing the party line at the expense of those it'll hurt the most . . .

Image

"it have something to do with where choo-choo go"

_________________
“Every single person, ever, has masturbated . . . Napoleon masturbated, Gandhi, Joan Jett, Shakespeare … ”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:39 pm 
King Ghidorah

Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:53 pm
Posts: 547
well, wouldn't the opposing side be the ones responsible to bring the support for their argument...not me?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:49 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:18 am
Posts: 4136
Location: under the special eyes
PinheadFestival wrote:
well, wouldn't the opposing side be the ones responsible to bring the support for their argument...not me?

if you want to live your life with one eye closed, i guess that's your choice.
it does, however, make you look like an ass.

_________________
This shit show was free.
~Anthony Allman


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Streetcars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:53 pm 
Godzilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:06 pm
Posts: 6498
Location: high atop mount midoriyama
well, you're more than welcome to address ANY of the "in the trenches" points made by myself above, on what benefits the city's pet projects really mean to the high-street-business-owner.

since the time that i first signed my lease, only THREE businesses on my old block survived, and two of them were the plasma center and the family dollar. (cheers to byzantium!) and the only one that made it past when i closed, was little brothers, and they were shut down less than a year later by the EXACT same rent games that're gonna be a part of this "development" that comes with your train . . .

_________________
“Every single person, ever, has masturbated . . . Napoleon masturbated, Gandhi, Joan Jett, Shakespeare … ”


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 239 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group






Buy a Premium BlogAd